quote:

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Originally posted by b4rry:
Amend my point 2 above: All fear is learned since a child comes into this world not knowing meanings beyond whatever associations acquired during pregnancy. Everything is an amorphous unknown until it acquires shape and meaning through experience.

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B: I do not know what current psychology concludes about this one. It used to be that certain fears--such of falling--were innate, unlearned. My own opinion is that, obviously, we are programmed by nature to certain fears, death being one of them. If fear is, essentially, cellularly the action of withdrawing from threat to survival of the individual, and an attempt to fight in some sense for that end when possible, then at a very primitive level there is the behaviour of fear even when there is no emotion, perhaps, of fear. For example, I like to tell "pacifists" that their immune system is "battling" invaders every second of their lives; this is your own violence in service of your own survival, I tell them. Without this battle going on every moment of your life, I say, you would never have lived long enough to become a "pacifist". Nobody ever agrees with me. Belief systems are too prejudiced and strong. The subtext here is that, when we pay deep enough attention to our bodies, we sense or even experience what we actually are, apart from any belief we have about who we are. That is what people here are doing when they "feel good" doing "bad things". They feel their body feeling good as they are having incest.

My point is that children's bodies, like the immune system, fight to survive. Purely instinctually, cellularly, biologically. They scream in bloody murder when they are left or unloved. This response is programmed by nature to get the mother to return, or community members to rescue the child. And, if you have ever been on a bus and watched heads turn and frowns appear, or worried looks, when an infant screams, you know. Or, better, you feel your own eyes start stinging when it starts crying. We know.

My perceptions and thoughts come from that kind of checking in on my body.

I am biassing my account here in the direction of the pain because it seems to be the bias of the people I have experienced. Ie., we humans seem to carry more stored up pain around than we do stored up joy. That would seem to be an intuitively obvious reality.

I think you have a point when you say incest is part of a continuum of human experience, why section it off and make it such a big thing, I think is one of your points? I would agree if it weren't true that the problem comes from doing just the opposite, that is, making it something special. I mean, it is obviously true that people do NOT regard sleeping with their family members as "just another thing" they do. In the real world, incest is NOT part of a continuum. It won't be until enough people have positive incest in spite of the odds against this because of the taboo. Or until they realize the "solution" society usually offers is often worse than the "problem". And that as, with any taboo, suppressing the behaviour just makes it that much stonger and the act just that much more desirable or irresitible.

I am focused on dad-daughter incest because this was the kind that messed up my previous girlfriend. And it is the kind I have met most in my acquaintances with women. So, it has interested me most. As I said last time, just from my knowledge of my own mother and what I see of women's behaviour towards their young children (to use your continuum idea, since I have no idea if these women are incesting their children), it appears obvious to me that giant mommy's exert tremendous power over their tiny children. The same size matters difference as with giant daddys. Their power is more affectionate, they withhold love more than threaten angry violence, for example, than do giant daddys. However, they are not without that threat as well. I see a tendency to support with reward more than punish with pain in the giant mommys, but they do both. As to incest, I can only reflect on my girlfriend again, whose mother also incest her. My girl friend said she felt that, at least, her mother's incesting was more comforting and nurturing and not violent. She ran from her father's torture (actual) to her mother for some sort of comfort and protection. Her mother fingered her and licked her and this got associated with comfort and protection, although it got mixed in with her hatrid of her father. What a sad, awful mess. I still feel depressed writing this. Anyhow, my point is that cross-generational incest is always about power, however, and as such, has more potential for emotional if not physical damage.

Daddy,

I have been enjoying the back and forth you and b4rry have been engaged in. Thanks for a good discussion. It sounds like you have had a difficult time with your girlfriend and her emotional problems. Of course our baggage isn't confined to our own psyches. Our behavior and attitudes impact those around us as well. Sorry for your pain.

It seems to me that you are almost posing the question of nature vs. nurture.

First of all, your immune system analogy is right on target. Evolution has provided us with an extraordinary mechanism for protecting ourselves and for our survival. We procreate and pass along only those genes that will help carry on our line.

The fundamental theorem upon which evolutionary psychology is based is that behavior (just like anatomy and physiology) is in large part inherited and that every organism acts (consciously or not) to enhance its inclusive fitness - to increase the frequency and distribution of its 'selfish' genes in future generations.

Hormones including androgen and testosterone have been proven to affect male animal behaviors and aggressive tendencies. However, in species which have a social organization, the effect of sex hormones is greatly reduced. They may have an effect on what a creature is ready to do, but what it actually does, depends on the situation, and with an even more complex social organization, the situational variables for humans are much greater. Biologists are concentrating their attention on the extent to which learning influences behavior.

The effects of socialization, on even rats and mice, is considerable. You made mention of it briefly in your post. Some time ago, experiments were carried out on young Rhesus monkeys that might now be considered unethical. One group was brought up from birth with an artificial 'mother' made out of cloth, without any living companions. When introduced into the community, they exhibited behavioral problems, ranging from hyperaggression to withdrawal, with sexual and parental incompetence, along with other social disorders.

A second group had real mothers but no age peers. They also exhibited hyperaggression. They were extremely mother-dependent, although they were more willing to explore.

Our cultural backgrounds exert considerable influence over our behavior. Culture refers to the widely shared customs, beliefs, values, norms, institutions, and other products of a community that are transmitted socially across generations. Culture is a very broad construct, encompassing everything from a society's legal system to its assumptions about family roles, from its dietary habits to its political ideals, from its technology to its attitudes about time, from its modes of dress to its spiritual beliefs, and from its art and music to its unspoken rules about sexual liaisons. We tend to think of culture as belonging to entire societies or broad ethnic groups within societies - which it does - but the concept can also be applied to small groups.

In its simplest terms, we base our belief systems and concept of right and wrong from what we learn at home, school, work and other social interactions.

I submit that it is a combination of heredity and environment that contributes to our sense of right and wrong. Inherently we know certain truths and our actions are either validated or condemned by society's reaction.

When it comes to incest, however...

Allow me the conceit of quoting myself here for a moment: It is incumbent upon adults to protect and defend children. From all sorts of situations. Physical, emotional and sexual abuse included.

I believe that most rational and intelligent people expect that in a familial relationship, the parent is the one entrusted to care for the offspring. The adult is responsible for nurturing and assisting in the development and growth of the child.

No matter how you look at it, a child is in a subservient position. Parents are dominant and hold all the power. Coercion, no matter how lovingly presented or packaged, is still coercion. There is an implied trust between the generations.

Parents are charged with the responsibility of making decisions for their children. But those decisions must be within the law. Or they must face the consequences.

I believe that most anecdotal evidence would support the theory that positive incest is usually borne out of adult-adult relationships. Just guessing, but I imagine that in parent-child incest there is a much higher degree of shame, guilt, remorse and emotional problems.

If it is the same place I am thinking, it is a huge site with 98,000 members and a busy bulletin board and a huge story archive??? I know several writers there and, trust me, I am no writer! But am an avid reader. Of course, it is not polite to spam this board with their name so I will refrain.

There is a place for everything and The Incest Board provides me with certain things I can't get elsewhere. I applaud their efforts here for allowing us to talk about this subject.

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Also, its quite clear that the genes are enablers and perhaps give us proclivities. They alone do not give a created being an immediate sense of shape or meaning beyond the immediate sensory inputs of an experience until the experience is processed in the context of those enablers/proclivities and of prior sensory inputs/processing.

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Its a shame this process compounds in so many of us into growing distrust and malevalence towards others and the world in general. Personally I think loosing one's humor in life is a sign of weakness [of some sort].

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Daddy,

I have been enjoying the back and forth you and b4rry have been engaged in. Thanks for a good discussion. It sounds like you have had a difficult time with your girlfriend and her emotional problems.

Honeychile: I don't know what goes on here. I left you a nice post this afternoon, and B4rry and Guyre, and they are ALL deleted! They aren't even controversial! I spent like an hour! I can't repeat them. I won't even try. The most important thing I wanted to say, Honeychile, is that you really are already an accomplished writer. I am not flattering. I am a writer, and I know you are one too. Your command of the language, your quiet authority, the knowledge at your command, and the way you put yourself into what you say. It is already there. I hope you don't say "aw shucks" again and really comprehend your talent and perhaps put it to use in somewhere more public than this odd little back room of ours.

quote:

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Originally posted by b4rry:
Chloe,

A friend of Daddy's is a friend of us all. Welcome.

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B4rry, Thank you for welcoming my friend Chloe!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Daddy:
B4rry, Thank you for welcoming my friend Chloe!

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And for the email article this morning. I will read it later. I hope to restore my computer tonight, although it may still have to go offline for reloading software.

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This is the e-mail I sent Daddy:

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Slow skin nerves send emotional background

Daddy, check this story out:

UNDERSTANDING THAT LOVING FEELING
In a Study of the Brain, Special Nerves Registered the Emotional Context of a Pleasurable Touch
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12587-2002Jul28.html

quote:

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Originally posted by Chloe:
B4rry, I read that article too, thank you. It's very interesting, so many parents to-day are too busy to really nurture their children. Babies go from the maternity ward straight into day-care where flustered workers don't have time to give them the attentionn they need. Keeping babies fed and clean is only part of nurturing. The lack of contact gets passed down from parent to emotionally stunted child. I fear for future generations. As I struggle with my own unresolved feelings I thank God I was held and loved as a child. My question is - was the sexual love from my father as stunting as any lack of other love?
Chloe

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++++++++++++++++
Chloe, A stunning/stunting question.
No one can re-run their life and re-program it, of course. So, we can never really know "what if?" we had lived it differently. Clearly, the question is: What is my condition at the present moment?

You use the word "stunted". This implies some form of twist or deformity. Is this not already a conclusion? More than this, it suggests a self-criticism, even perhaps loathing. Have you consciously concluded your life is twisted/stunted? Do you feel"bad"?

(You realize, of course, if you answer this question here, you will likely receive responses, all sorts of opinions, both supportive and unsupportive as the case may be.You open yourself.)

Isn't incest, like any repetitive pattern, a form of fixation or circularity rather than moving and growing? What is the dynamic of incest? The intense attention, the focus, the energy--all of it, the whole dynamic or flow--stays in the family; that is its very nature. This is a kind of circularity.The daughter (say) is the mother of the father's child who is the mother of the father's child... Even if there is no offspring, the thrust and innate destiny of the sexual urge is to procreate (apart from any other aspect, that is its fundamental purpose). So, there is not only "keeping it in the family", there is potentially "making a family from the family". Genetically, diversity is reduced, which is another de-evolutionary tendency or short-circuit of ongoing growth and diversity. Above all else, the lack of diversity is key.

Lack of diversity genetically in the case of offspring of incest; lack of diversity in terms of the incested child never leaving home to experience new, diverse partners and gain diverse experiences (say, in extreme examples); and lack of diversity because one does not have a chance to become as differentiated within oneself due to diverse experiences being in short supply.

One can argue the richness of the incestual love; indeed, this may be the case. One can argue that it really is love; indeed, this may be the case. One can argue that one is actually better off because of it; indeed, this may be the case. But, diversity? Emotional maturity?

What is that, anyway? I think immaturity is easier to define: Dependency, emotionally and physically. The child is both, unquestionably. But adults...? How many of us are really emotionally independent or at least interdependent? How many of us form relationships in which--unconsciously--we are mating with our parents? Unfortunately, when there is a hidden agenda like this, the drama unfolds badly because, for one thing, the other partner may not be a willing player or even have the same agenda. We all know the soap opera. (Or, do we??)

So, somebody who is aware of her/his incest longings consciously is miles ahead in terms of either finding a relationship in which both partners are willing to play this out(a possibly volatile role-playing aspect of a relationship which is not, in itself, incestuous), or in avoiding acting out these yearnings within a relationship (which is a therapeutic perspective).

Maturity involves deep self-awareness and freedom from the desires and attitudes of the child or of the past. Tall order. At least, it involves the ability to choose to either act, or not act, on those desires.

My experience is that almost nobody is fully mature, that is, free of the past. Most of us are "a work in progress". And that is my point:

Is your "work", your life, "in progress"? If it is, then you are not "stunted". If you are able to form relationships that are satisfying, emotionally, outside the incestual matrix, that is, if you are not fixated and have to recreate that kind of relationship every time. If you do not HAVE to have it, then you are not "fixated" and your life is not stuck or "stunted".

Being AWARE of a stuck place in our life, aware of a fixed pattern of feeling and behaving, is not the same as simply acting out or living through the pattern without self-awareness. It may seem it is the same at first glance.But consider: when you are aware of some pattern, some behaviour, some feeling that emerges from memory or the past (because the past is just that you realize: memory, either individual or communal)... the pattern changes!

You have had this experience, I am sure, where you notice something about yourself, or somebody points it out to you...if you or they do not judge what they see...and you burst out laughing. Or, a joke is told about you in a kindly way, and you laugh at yourself. The actual moment of insight, "geting the joke" or SEEING--causes a release of energy and sudden joy. In the case of a joke, laughter and mirth. The joke or humour is actually a way of having insight without suffering. For one instant, one sees a pattern, something about oneself, and because it is seen in a new way, and without threat (such as judgement or punishment), there is surprise and delight. The pattern, the thing seen, vanishes in the laughter. For a short time thereafter, there may be freedom from the very thing that was pointed out...until the pattern reasserts itself. So, humour is a form of self-awareness, and it is the awareness that is the liberating factor.

In a less funny and expressive way, non-jugemental awareness ongoingly frees the mind from stuck patterns. It takes a quiet mind, at least a little quietness, to be able to accomplish this, but it is the way to end stuck patterns. The question then becomes, not how to get unstuck, or if incest is stunting one's growth. The question becomes: Can I quietly pay attention to my patterns? If not, what can I do to become quiet and watch (meditate)?

Because incest is a very deep, emotionally rooted "pattern", full of fear of abandonment, the need for love and a merging with the parent, power and powerlessness...not to mention intense sexual sensations...and around that all the significance the individual imbues the experience with...because of all of this, self-awareness will involve a lot of suffering through all of the emotions that have been perhaps unconscious.

Freedom from the incestual thrall will almost certainly involve a lot of re-living old childhood pain and pleasure.

What I have found, if I may interject, is that these questions Chloe and others raise, do not even arise in a person unless self-awareness is already on the move. They come from the place inside the person that wants to grow beyond.

Not only this, I have found that buried feelings do not come up unless the individual has the RESOURCES to experience those often painful feelings AND SURVIVE. The way I like to put it is, "The pain, perhaps deep sadness or fear, is coming up because something stronger is pushing it to the surface and into the light. If that Something Stronger were not inside, pushing up, these feelings would not even be felt, one would just be acting them out unconsciously.The security comes from sensing that we ARE that Something Stronger and NOT the pain."

The good news in all this is that our serious questions probably come from the healthiest, that is freest, most alive and growing, part of our being. That whatever pain comes up in the process will not be unbearable, will not annihilate us, because our healthy part would never do that to us.

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Now, Chloe:

I think one has to separate the baby from the child on these subjects. The baby exists in a world full of sensations but without many meanings. The child has (hopefully) learned some of the meanings to various sensations and has even started multiplying their thought processes beyond straight sensory response. Thusly, for instance, there is no such thing as a baby being sexual since they haven't developed physically enough to derive that meaning to any sensation. However, an older child -- one physically developed enough to process sexual meanings from sensations -- knows there are meaning differences between sexual sensations and nonsexual sensations, and hence draws different conclusions from each. I suspect that in abusive/coercive cross-generation incest situations, however, the child easily confuses these sensation meanings. Yes, this can be stunting, but need not be permanently so. As Daddy points out, self-awareness helps, but so does expanding one's horizons in a controlled manner to gather in some of the missing sensations and to process meaning from them without getting oneself into dangerous or even self-destructive patterns (i.e., explore that part of the world you feel you don't fully understand, but be responsible while exploring, just like anyone should be).

By the way, Chloe, feel free to e-mail me directly if you'd prefer discussing your situation in a less public arena.[/QUOTE+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

(Friends, I remember, B.) I will try to keep it short. My basic thought is contained in the last paragraph of my response to Chloe (above).

quote:

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Originally posted by Daddy:
[
You use the word "stunted". This implies some form of twist or deformity. Is this not already a conclusion? More than this, it suggests a self-criticism, even perhaps loathing. Have you consciously concluded your life is twisted/stunted? Do you feel"bad"?

(You realize, of course, if you answer this question here, you will likely receive responses, all sorts of opinions, both supportive and unsupportive as the case may be.You open yourself.)

Oh, so many ideas and directions....
Daddy, by "stunted" I meant "arrested growth" ( I looked it up in my Dictionary *S*). Whether it's a result of entering adulthood prematurely, leaving an un-explored part of one's life. (For me, my teen years.)
I can honestly say I don't feel "bad" in any sense. I am a fatalist and look back with mixed emotions - as you can all probably realise now. I have always refused to look closely at what I feel so it's hard to start now, in my 20's.
I'm blathering now....sorry. I have to stop these "streams of consciousness" ....so boring.
thanks - Daddy. I am looking at the rest of your post. Taking it sentance by sentance.
More later
Chloe
[/B]

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Now, Chloe:

I think one has to separate the baby from the child on these subjects. The baby exists in a world full of sensations but without many meanings. The child has (hopefully) learned some of the meanings to various sensations and has even started multiplying their thought processes beyond straight sensory response.

quote:

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Originally posted by Chloe:

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Now, Chloe:

I think one has to separate the baby from the child on these subjects. The baby exists in a world full of sensations but without many meanings. The child has (hopefully) learned some of the meanings to various sensations and has even started multiplying their thought processes beyond straight sensory response.

B4rry....I must be in an arguementative mood, but I disagree with the above statement. The baby may not consciously recieve touches and attention as sexual...I am thinking breast feeding, bathing etc, not deliberate sexual touching. All the loving, tender attention a baby recieves morphs into it's sexual awareness at a later age. You, yourself, said "the child has (hopefully) learned the meaning....." but would it with out having had the earlier sensations?
Why is it some people, as adults, have such a hard time expressing love? I believe it's from lack of early physical (not sexual) touch.
I'm a bit nervous now.....may have bitten off too much.....
Chloe

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Chloe, I think what I was meaning is that to the baby its all sensations -- not sexual, not sensual, just sensations. The meanings of "sensual" and "sexual" come later Their bodies nor their reportoir of experiences are enough for those as infants. this is not to say babies don't need all the good sensations they can get (plus a few bad but not dangerous ones to put the good ones in perspective). Sensations of all sorts are important to every baby's growth and development. Very important.

quote:

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Originally posted by Chloe:
[QUOTE][B] I don't know. Someties women are afraid of true intimacy the way most men are. Sex for sex's sake can be an escape from intimacy and commitment. Fear of closeness.[B/][QUOTE/]
****
I found this quote from one of Daddy's posts in Dr Incest and it rang a bell with me. That's so true and yet it's always the man who supposed to run from commitment. In relationships since my father died, and even while he was alive, not once did I consider it as "long term" - always keeping any talk of commitment as vague and brief as possible. Is this a result of a block I've put up, I wonder?
When I find something that sparks a thought in here I just want to share it, sorry.
Chloe

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What comes up within you when you imagine a person worthy of a long-term relationship with you, pick a guy, even someone like your dad, who is not your dad, and them imagine surrendering yourself to being in a long-term relationship with that person.

Joy, Sadness, Fear, Anger, Guilt, Shame.

One of these feelings may come up along with a story about what may or may not work.

It will likely lead to your commitment issue(s).

In Curiosity and Goodwill,

Guyre

quote:

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Originally posted by Honeychile:
Might as well just jump right in!

Hello everyone. I have just discovered this site and hope to become a part of your community.

I have become convinced that I must tell my story or go crazy from keeping it bottled up inside me.

I have searched for a legitimate expression of my feelings, but incest is such a hot topic that most mainstream outlets offer no safe haven. I am new to this particular site, but at first glance, it appears that the majority of members seem to accept this lifestyle. Kudos to the administrators and moderators for creating such a nice website!

I have visited other incest forums but they only seem to be interested in sharing doctored ******* I am looking for a place to discuss sex. Specifically incest. But, anything having to do with sexuality and sensuality appeals to me. Whether that be in the form of stories, jokes, polls, chit chat--- whatever! I love sex!

Suddenly I feel like Jed Clampett... "Come and listen to a story..."

My story is simple. I am an adult female and I am intimately involved with a male member of my family. I had never considered an incestuous relationship - save the school girl fantasies I had as a teenager exploring her sexuality.

My entire life was 'normal' and within society's boundaries. A long term relationship ended and I had to re-examine my life.

I have a wonderful career. I am active in sports, cultural activities, volunteer work. While I am not a supermodel or a ravishing beauty, I am not repulsive either! I would classify myself as attractive and leave it at that. I mean- I have never made anyone retch!

I take care of myself and have a pretty good outlook on life. All in all, I consider myself well-adjusted.

Where it gets tricky is trying to explain how this is possible while I am engaged in the most taboo form of fornication possible.

I live in the same neighborhood where I grew up. Familiar, comfortable surroundings help to keep me at ease. My father still lives in our family home even though he is alone in that rambling house.

We have had a long standing tradition of having Sunday dinner together. From many years ago when I first moved out on my own. After my mother died, I helped with the cooking and cleaning or we'd occasionally go to a restaurant.

My father started getting interested in getting out of the house more often. We both like to explore new and different types of restaurants each week. He is an orthopedic surgeon and professor at the medical school here. He has cut way back on his hours and surgeries and is finally taking the time to enjoy life and his passion-tennis.

We also play a few sets each week. I am the only female that can give him any kind of competition. Hardly a surprise since he taught me, coached me through my teenage years and still gives me pointers to this day.

After a particularly hard fought match, we came home and I showered in my old bathroom and got comfy in a new tennis outfit. We were supposed to go out to a very casual new diner. We only had to wait the requisite half hour before we were seated.

A simple mistake by our waiter set the tone for the evening. He asked if my 'husband' and I wanted the chateaubriand for 2 as it takes a while to cook. Instead of explaining that we were father-daughter and not husband and wife, we just nodded our heads. When he came back with our drink order, it got worse. He was quite chatty!

He told us that we looked really good together and it was obvious we were very much in love. Now, I don't know if he was angling for a tip or what, but it did give me food for thought.

I think it did the same for my father. I would catch him staring at me throughout the meal with a strange expression on his face. But we got to talking about work and current events and I soon forgot the whole tone of the evening.

We finished dinner and then went out to their terrace for a nightcap around the bar. The warm weather and early hour made for a crowded piece of real estate! We were squished together as the rock music blared over the speakers. My father had to keep shouting in my ear so I could hear him.

I guess I was just in that frame of mind, but when his lips brushed against my ear, I jumped! The old cliche of feeling a stab of electricity shoot through my body was indeed happening! I instinctively grabbed his arm and leaned into him.

I guess it was at that point that he picked up on the same line of thinking. We decided to head home since it was so noisy. I can't remember what we talked about in the car, but it was harmless as both our minds were working overtime trying to figure out what was happening.

We got home and my father turned on the stereo. That took me aback as his first inclination was always to turn on the tv. I wasn't sure what this meant. He looked at me and said "We need to talk"

"I am having thoughts and feelings for you that are totally inappropriate."

OK, that was pretty straightforward. And it mimicked what I was thinking. We sat and stared at each other as a riff from a George Benson song played in the background.

He did make the first move-he came over and reached out his hand to help me off the couch. He took me in his arms for a dance. How many times had we done this same thing - innocently before? When I was in 7th grade and we were practicing for our first father/daughter dance at school. At various family weddings. Just goofing round in the back yard. Why was it now taking on a whole different meaning?

I don't know-but it did. Suddenly, he was not my father. He was a man. A very handsome and desirable man that was sexually attractive to me. A man that I was thinking of kissing at that moment. A man who, in my mind's eye in that instant, was naked and poised over me ready to shove his cock inside me.

As soon as his hand reached out to stroke my face, I knew he was feeling the same things. In the few milliseconds that his head moved closer to my face, I knew what was happening but I was powerless to stop it. Not that I wanted to. Everything was working in slow motion.

His mouth was inches away from mine. I felt his breath on my nose and upper lip. We each cocked our heads to the right and he moved in for a kiss. When his lips touched mine, an involuntary moan escaped my throat.

They say you never forget your first kiss with someone. And I believe that is true. His lips were soft, yet strong. He pressed and mashed them against mine for a few seconds. Actually, softly at first and then with increasing pressure.

I felt him open his mouth, so I parted my lips in the hope that he would soon follow with his tongue. He didn't disappoint! We danced and dueled and engaged in tongue play - moving our heads and practically trying to jump down each other's throats.

I was so enjoying this kiss-fest that it still hadn't really sunk in that I was 'swapping spit' with my father! Again, we both seemed to realize that at the same time.

We broke apart for air, stared at each other and stumbled all over ourselves-searching for the right thing to say. Instead, we came back together for more lip locking. This time, my hands went up to the back of his head to draw him closer. His arms wrapped around me and pulled me into a tight embrace.

At this point, words were superfluous. It was obvious what was going to happen next.

For our own mental health and later deniability, we seemed to both treat this as if the other person were just a new lover. We wordlessly walked to the master bedroom. When my father reached out and pulled my shirt over my head, I held my breath. He came up behind me and nuzzled my neck as he reached around to pop open my bra.

He circled me so that he could position himself directly in front of me. My breasts spilled out and seemed to blossom as his eyes scanned them.

I grabbed his hand and placed it on the fleshy swell of my breast. I kept eye contact as I slid it down towards my nipple. By this time, I felt them hardening and sticking straight out. His hand grazed over top of them and then started squeezing and massaging them.

He bent down and lifted one to his mouth. His lips were so warm and wet. He planted soft kisses in circles. Then he began licking and lightly nibbling. I pulled his head tight and said out loud,

"Please suck them. Please suck my tits- hard"

He obliged. And I couldn't stand it! He alternated sides. It felt intensely erotic standing there topless while I still wore my short tennis skirt and shoes! He moved his hands down my stomach, over the top of that skirt until his fingers wrapped around the hem.

He smoothed his hands flat against my thighs and massaged me for a few minutes without really moving anywhere. When I spread my legs a little, his hands began moving up. They hesitated a few seconds at the hem of my panties. He rubbed the outside of my crotch and moaned when he felt the wetness and the heat there.

Then he slipped the panties to the side and rubbed his finger up and down my slit. This time I moaned! I was so wet. So ready. I pushed his hand away and stepped back. I unzipped my skirt and let it fall to the floor. I stepped out of my shoes and stood before him naked.

Yes, naked as the day I was born.

The irony of that thought was not lost on either of us.

I looked down at his crotch and saw that he was fully erect. I reached out and gave it a quick squeeze. I unzipped his pants and while I was weak in the knees, I cannot blame that on the fact that I fell to the ground and took hold of his penis! I looked it over and then moved to lick it all over. I went from stem to stern. I licked the head and then up and down his shaft. I took him in my mouth and sucked. I felt his hands in my hair. His breathing was quite ragged and exaggerated. I stopped and let his penis pop out of my mouth. I walked towards the bed, turned around and indicated he should follow me.

This whole time I am thinking to myself - in an out-of-body, detached sort of way-that this is the most outrageous occurrence. I am seducing (and being seduced by) my very own father. But that still didn't stop me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guyyre:
Chloe,

What comes up within you when you imagine a person worthy of a long-term relationship with you, pick a guy, even someone like your dad, who is not your dad, and them imagine surrendering yourself to being in a long-term relationship with that person.

Joy, Sadness, Fear, Anger, Guilt, Shame.

One of these feelings may come up along with a story about what may or may not work.

It will likely lead to your commitment issue(s).

In Curiosity and Goodwill,

Guyre

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Honeychile:
Might as well just jump right in!

Hello everyone. I have just discovered this site and hope to become a part of your community.

I have become convinced that I must tell my story or go crazy from keeping it bottled up inside me.

I have searched for a legitimate expression of my feelings, but incest is such a hot topic that most mainstream outlets offer no safe haven. I am new to this particular site, but at first glance, it appears that the majority of members seem to accept this lifestyle. Kudos to the administrators and moderators for creating such a nice website!

I have visited other incest forums but they only seem to be interested in sharing doctored ******* I am looking for a place to discuss sex. Specifically incest. But, anything having to do with sexuality and sensuality appeals to me. Whether that be in the form of stories, jokes, polls, chit chat--- whatever! I love sex!

Suddenly I feel like Jed Clampett... "Come and listen to a story..."

My story is simple. I am an adult female and I am intimately involved with a male member of my family. I had never considered an incestuous relationship - save the school girl fantasies I had as a teenager exploring her sexuality.

My entire life was 'normal' and within society's boundaries. A long term relationship ended and I had to re-examine my life.

I have a wonderful career. I am active in sports, cultural activities, volunteer work. While I am not a supermodel or a ravishing beauty, I am not repulsive either! I would classify myself as attractive and leave it at that. I mean- I have never made anyone retch!

I take care of myself and have a pretty good outlook on life. All in all, I consider myself well-adjusted.

Where it gets tricky is trying to explain how this is possible while I am engaged in the most taboo form of fornication possible.

I live in the same neighborhood where I grew up. Familiar, comfortable surroundings help to keep me at ease. My father still lives in our family home even though he is alone in that rambling house.

We have had a long standing tradition of having Sunday dinner together. From many years ago when I first moved out on my own. After my mother died, I helped with the cooking and cleaning or we'd occasionally go to a restaurant.

My father started getting interested in getting out of the house more often. We both like to explore new and different types of restaurants each week. He is an orthopedic surgeon and professor at the medical school here. He has cut way back on his hours and surgeries and is finally taking the time to enjoy life and his passion-tennis.

We also play a few sets each week. I am the only female that can give him any kind of competition. Hardly a surprise since he taught me, coached me through my teenage years and still gives me pointers to this day.

After a particularly hard fought match, we came home and I showered in my old bathroom and got comfy in a new tennis outfit. We were supposed to go out to a very casual new diner. We only had to wait the requisite half hour before we were seated.

A simple mistake by our waiter set the tone for the evening. He asked if my 'husband' and I wanted the chateaubriand for 2 as it takes a while to cook. Instead of explaining that we were father-daughter and not husband and wife, we just nodded our heads. When he came back with our drink order, it got worse. He was quite chatty!

He told us that we looked really good together and it was obvious we were very much in love. Now, I don't know if he was angling for a tip or what, but it did give me food for thought.

I think it did the same for my father. I would catch him staring at me throughout the meal with a strange expression on his face. But we got to talking about work and current events and I soon forgot the whole tone of the evening.

We finished dinner and then went out to their terrace for a nightcap around the bar. The warm weather and early hour made for a crowded piece of real estate! We were squished together as the rock music blared over the speakers. My father had to keep shouting in my ear so I could hear him.

I guess I was just in that frame of mind, but when his lips brushed against my ear, I jumped! The old cliche of feeling a stab of electricity shoot through my body was indeed happening! I instinctively grabbed his arm and leaned into him.

I guess it was at that point that he picked up on the same line of thinking. We decided to head home since it was so noisy. I can't remember what we talked about in the car, but it was harmless as both our minds were working overtime trying to figure out what was happening.

We got home and my father turned on the stereo. That took me aback as his first inclination was always to turn on the tv. I wasn't sure what this meant. He looked at me and said "We need to talk"

"I am having thoughts and feelings for you that are totally inappropriate."

OK, that was pretty straightforward. And it mimicked what I was thinking. We sat and stared at each other as a riff from a George Benson song played in the background.

He did make the first move-he came over and reached out his hand to help me off the couch. He took me in his arms for a dance. How many times had we done this same thing - innocently before? When I was in 7th grade and we were practicing for our first father/daughter dance at school. At various family weddings. Just goofing round in the back yard. Why was it now taking on a whole different meaning?

I don't know-but it did. Suddenly, he was not my father. He was a man. A very handsome and desirable man that was sexually attractive to me. A man that I was thinking of kissing at that moment. A man who, in my mind's eye in that instant, was naked and poised over me ready to shove his cock inside me.

As soon as his hand reached out to stroke my face, I knew he was feeling the same things. In the few milliseconds that his head moved closer to my face, I knew what was happening but I was powerless to stop it. Not that I wanted to. Everything was working in slow motion.

His mouth was inches away from mine. I felt his breath on my nose and upper lip. We each cocked our heads to the right and he moved in for a kiss. When his lips touched mine, an involuntary moan escaped my throat.

They say you never forget your first kiss with someone. And I believe that is true. His lips were soft, yet strong. He pressed and mashed them against mine for a few seconds. Actually, softly at first and then with increasing pressure.

I felt him open his mouth, so I parted my lips in the hope that he would soon follow with his tongue. He didn't disappoint! We danced and dueled and engaged in tongue play - moving our heads and practically trying to jump down each other's throats.

I was so enjoying this kiss-fest that it still hadn't really sunk in that I was 'swapping spit' with my father! Again, we both seemed to realize that at the same time.

We broke apart for air, stared at each other and stumbled all over ourselves-searching for the right thing to say. Instead, we came back together for more lip locking. This time, my hands went up to the back of his head to draw him closer. His arms wrapped around me and pulled me into a tight embrace.

At this point, words were superfluous. It was obvious what was going to happen next.

For our own mental health and later deniability, we seemed to both treat this as if the other person were just a new lover. We wordlessly walked to the master bedroom. When my father reached out and pulled my shirt over my head, I held my breath. He came up behind me and nuzzled my neck as he reached around to pop open my bra.

He circled me so that he could position himself directly in front of me. My breasts spilled out and seemed to blossom as his eyes scanned them.

I grabbed his hand and placed it on the fleshy swell of my breast. I kept eye contact as I slid it down towards my nipple. By this time, I felt them hardening and sticking straight out. His hand grazed over top of them and then started squeezing and massaging them.

He bent down and lifted one to his mouth. His lips were so warm and wet. He planted soft kisses in circles. Then he began licking and lightly nibbling. I pulled his head tight and said out loud,

"Please suck them. Please suck my tits- hard"

He obliged. And I couldn't stand it! He alternated sides. It felt intensely erotic standing there topless while I still wore my short tennis skirt and shoes! He moved his hands down my stomach, over the top of that skirt until his fingers wrapped around the hem.

He smoothed his hands flat against my thighs and massaged me for a few minutes without really moving anywhere. When I spread my legs a little, his hands began moving up. They hesitated a few seconds at the hem of my panties. He rubbed the outside of my crotch and moaned when he felt the wetness and the heat there.

Then he slipped the panties to the side and rubbed his finger up and down my slit. This time I moaned! I was so wet. So ready. I pushed his hand away and stepped back. I unzipped my skirt and let it fall to the floor. I stepped out of my shoes and stood before him naked.

Yes, naked as the day I was born.

The irony of that thought was not lost on either of us.

I looked down at his crotch and saw that he was fully erect. I reached out and gave it a quick squeeze. I unzipped his pants and while I was weak in the knees, I cannot blame that on the fact that I fell to the ground and took hold of his penis! I looked it over and then moved to lick it all over. I went from stem to stern. I licked the head and then up and down his shaft. I took him in my mouth and sucked. I felt his hands in my hair. His breathing was quite ragged and exaggerated. I stopped and let his penis pop out of my mouth. I walked towards the bed, turned around and indicated he should follow me.

This whole time I am thinking to myself - in an out-of-body, detached sort of way-that this is the most outrageous occurrence. I am seducing (and being seduced by) my very own father. But that still didn't stop me.

---

I have been this board for alsomost more than a year, I can understand this board is dedicated to those who have beennin incest realtionship or who want to get inot into it.
I observed here the people who are not into incesteous relationship but into pure sex for physical pleasure. I do not find even single message where I could see the love and affecion in the realtionship. I think incesteous relationship is intereprated as priceless and easy availability of person for sex and to jerk off or use children for their own pleasure and sexual gratifiaction.

When I was reading the long story of Honeychill. I find found the same prono style of story as third grade style of writing. I can say it well worded and writtne with smooth flow. The reader could make a picture in their mind of her father and day and jerk off. I don ot find connection of realtionship, respect, trust and nobility of this kind realtionship. I do not find undaunted love and beauty of the relationship.

I hail form a culture where it reltionship is sort of institution. Where the base of relationship is family, responsibility, leadership, trust, confidence, commitment and provide security to the family.

it is common where, mother can marry her eldest son, niece can mayy her maternal uncle, close cousins can marry without any problem and implication. Nephew can marry her aunt from his father side. Father can marry his eldest daugther.

These kind of relationships take place where it is must and needed to take care of family, have responsibity and to save further division of land and wealth of the family.
Even the puberty is celeberated in the family with great pumps and show. Maternal uncle has the right to marry her niece and break the hymen. The boy's puberty is celeberated either in the presence of mother, his aunt or sister. Even we get adult aducation from our parents.

In cultures where survival is not a day to day issue, sex becomes less an issue of family foundation, and more an issue of emotional relationship and recreation. So these relationship SHOULD seem foreign to you, when you compare them to a particular culture.

now I'm curious, what culture is this that you speak of ?

All of your examples are familiar to me, but the father marrying eldest daughter, and mother marrying eldest son are new.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Innocent_k:
...snip...

I hail form a culture where it reltionship is sort of institution. Where the base of relationship is family, responsibility, leadership, trust, confidence, commitment and provide security to the family.

it is common where, mother can marry her eldest son, niece can mayy her maternal uncle, close cousins can marry without any problem and implication. Nephew can marry her aunt from his father side. Father can marry his eldest daugther.

These kind of relationships take place where it is must and needed to take care of family, have responsibity and to save further division of land and wealth of the family.
Even the puberty is celeberated in the family with great pumps and show. Maternal uncle has the right to marry her niece and break the hymen. The boy's puberty is celeberated either in the presence of mother, his aunt or sister. Even we get adult aducation from our parents.

This kind ofrealtionship is normal and part of life.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guyyre:
Innocent_k,

In cultures where survival is not a day to day issue, sex becomes less an issue of family foundation, and more an issue of emotional relationship and recreation. So these relationship SHOULD seem foreign to you, when you compare them to a particular culture.

now I'm curious, what culture is this that you speak of ?

All of your examples are familiar to me, but the father marrying eldest daughter, and mother marrying eldest son are new.

Guyre

---

Gird yourself, I could not help adding alot of explanation to my post. I hope it is worth wading through it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chloe:
Imagining myself in a long term (life time) relationship fills me with a feeling of sorrow. I surprised myself. I expect it' secause it would be a betrayal of sorts. In my mind the perfect partner would be a man older tham me but only beause I am attracted to them.
A story, Guyer? Do you want me to write down what I want to happen? I;m not sure I understand.
Chloe

---

Thanks Chloe,

What I would like you to experience, is whatever plays in your mind as you imagine a long-term relationship, and follow it to its root.

Why ? This can be a healing process.

Under every deep feeling is a deeply held value. Something is good or bad or a mix of both - paradox, and my living/changing relationship to values excites my emotions.

So, if your relationship to your dad embodied and/or transgressed a mix of your values, the ending of your relationship brings a similar mix of emotions.

Oversimplifying in order to make some sense:

Joy, sometimes Fear come from:
Gain
Moving-toward/Being-with Valued things Moving-from Not-Valued things

Anger, sometimes Fear come from:
Loss
Moving-toward/Being-with Not-Valued things
Moving-from Valued things

The story behind an emotion can be about the journey connecting/disconnecting from a Valued Thing/Person, or about how you chose to Value that Thing or Person. Values choices can be taken in response to Traumatic or Ecstatic experiences, or Indoctrination (a sort of Trauma, if you think about it ). Those experiences can be related in stories.

Looking at the story of what happened in my recent life, and the older story of how I chose my values brings me insight, and perspective on my soul, heart, behavior.

You did that and came up sad, and supposing it to be a betrayal. You might do it again and find more detail, like how you value surviving and moving on as a betrayal.

I am presuming, safely I hope, that you feel long-term relationship (committed?) would be a betrayal of your relationship with your father.

I sense the sadness is natural. You loved him, gave yourself to him, and had no formal letting go.

I have an ache that comes up for me when I considered marriage to my ex-gf.

I still love, and grieve for my sister. She helped fill the space in my life vacated by my mother when I was 3, to which she never really returned. My sister is alive, still values the relationship we had, yet is estranged from me, searching a new path, and clinging to religion.

I feel sad, since I don't see her choices working for her. If she could surrender those choices and make new ones with me....well....it is all a fantasy...one that comes up, usually subconsciously, with an ache in my chest, whenever I think of her, or she is mentioned.

I created a value on intimacy with my mother, until I was three, and created a value of aching need and distrust for intimacy when she left - a paradox.

My sister moved into that space. Perhaps, my distrust of her commitment led to our seperation ? A life story, that is influenced by the values I created.

My Sadness, and Ache are an echo of the abandonment/loss of mom, and sis.

Fear of commitment is a replay of the same paradox when I consider a new mate.

So when I consider long-term commitment, the unresolved ache of my previous relationship, one so seperate from the rest of my world, yet the center of my world, to which I surrendered so much of myself - more than I 'know' I can, ever again. And yet I hunger for it.

I said 'know' because it is a 'knowing' I have convinced myself of, and it really isn't true. 'believe' is the truthful word. I have to make the choice to surrender my heart to another person again, before I can re-create that intensity. I have to accept that loss, and abandonment is a natural consequence of relationship with mortal, wounded (who isn't?) persons.

Does that, in any way, speak to the sadness you feel ?

Guyre

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guyyre:
Chloe,

Gird yourself, I could not help adding alot of explanation to my post. I hope it is worth wading through it.

Thanks Chloe,

What I would like you to experience, is whatever plays in your mind as you imagine a long-term relationship, and follow it to its root.

Why ? This can be a healing process.

Under every deep feeling is a deeply held value. Something is good or bad or a mix of both - paradox, and my living/changing relationship to values excites my emotions.

So, if your relationship to your dad embodied and/or transgressed a mix of your values, the ending of your relationship brings a similar mix of emotions.

Oversimplifying in order to make some sense:

Joy, sometimes Fear come from:
Gain
Moving-toward/Being-with Valued things Moving-from Not-Valued things

Anger, sometimes Fear come from:
Loss
Moving-toward/Being-with Not-Valued things
Moving-from Valued things

The story behind an emotion can be about the journey connecting/disconnecting from a Valued Thing/Person, or about how you chose to Value that Thing or Person. Values choices can be taken in response to Traumatic or Ecstatic experiences, or Indoctrination (a sort of Trauma, if you think about it ;) ). Those experiences can be related in stories.

Looking at the story of what happened in my recent life, and the older story of how I chose my values brings me insight, and perspective on my soul, heart, behavior.

You did that and came up sad, and supposing it to be a betrayal. You might do it again and find more detail, like how you value surviving and moving on as a betrayal.

I am presuming, safely I hope, that you feel long-term relationship (committed?) would be a betrayal of your relationship with your father.

I sense the sadness is natural. You loved him, gave yourself to him, and had no formal letting go.

I have an ache that comes up for me when I considered marriage to my ex-gf.

I still love, and grieve for my sister. She helped fill the space in my life vacated by my mother when I was 3, to which she never really returned. My sister is alive, still values the relationship we had, yet is estranged from me, searching a new path, and clinging to religion.

I feel sad, since I don't see her choices working for her. If she could surrender those choices and make new ones with me....well....it is all a fantasy...one that comes up, usually subconsciously, with an ache in my chest, whenever I think of her, or she is mentioned.

I created a value on intimacy with my mother, until I was three, and created a value of aching need and distrust for intimacy when she left - a paradox.

My sister moved into that space. Perhaps, my distrust of her commitment led to our seperation ? A life story, that is influenced by the values I created.

My Sadness, and Ache are an echo of the abandonment/loss of mom, and sis.

Fear of commitment is a replay of the same paradox when I consider a new mate.

So when I consider long-term commitment, the unresolved ache of my previous relationship, one so seperate from the rest of my world, yet the center of my world, to which I surrendered so much of myself - more than I 'know' I can, ever again. And yet I hunger for it.

I said 'know' because it is a 'knowing' I have convinced myself of, and it really isn't true. 'believe' is the truthful word. I have to make the choice to surrender my heart to another person again, before I can re-create that intensity. I have to accept that loss, and abandonment is a natural consequence of relationship with mortal, wounded (who isn't?) persons.

Does that, in any way, speak to the sadness you feel ?

Guyre

---

Dear Guyyre, I cried when I read your post, it really touched me. You seem so vulnerable and fragile but still able to give strength to me. Like I always do, I'll read and re-read your post. I'll try to recognise any developments or insights but the impact of what you say is so strong I am excited. The ache you talk about and the inability to commit, the feeling of abandonment, is so familiar. I try not to look back and dwell in the past so much anymore. Incidents flash into my mind triggered by the oddest things, the scent of cigar smoke instantly arouses me because it was something my father loved but only did rarely. (No Clinton jokes here plse). I wonder if a listing or kind of written memory would help. I tried once before but too soon after Dad died, I think.
I want to thank you, Guyyer, for revealing yourself to me/us.
Love
Chloe

Regardless, my heart and mind begin to boil over when I sense a quivering heart. Something has to come out; This time, fortunately, for the better.

I am happy for your tears.

I hope your re-readings provoke new insights, and a few questions.

Be Well,

quote:

---

Originally posted by b4rry:
Innocent, please tell us more about your culture. Many of us ***ely are interested in how different people around the world handle these things. And we'd also like to hear more of how you view what the rest of us think and do because your views, coming as they do out of your culture, would be both interesting and enlightening.

---

What would you like to know more my culture. Please ask me if u have any sepcific question. Mother is focus in the family. she plays a singnificant role in the deveolpment of man.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Innocent_k:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by b4rry:
[b] Innocent, please tell us more about your culture. Many of us ***ely are interested in how different people around the world handle these things. And we'd also like to hear more of how you view what the rest of us think and do because your views, coming as they do out of your culture, would be both interesting and enlightening.

---

What would you like to know more my culture. Please ask me if u have any sepcific question. Mother is focus in the family. she plays a singnificant role in the deveolpment of man.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Interesting. I've heard there are some agrarian cultures in the world land traditionally is divided amongst the sons. Over time a family with once large land holdings can become a clan where no individual has much land at all, sometimes not even enough to feed their own family.

Such a tradition is quite different from those places who handle it via wills wherein the older generation decides who and how many of their kids, if any, get the family property. But both systems have their own problems and place their own pressures on individuals in the family. In your part of India evidentally the pressure to maintain usefull sizes of the land handed down has led to marital agreements.

I believe your quite right about this not really being a sexual matter. In fact, its probably not much of an emotional matter either. It is, simply, an economic matter driven in most cases (I suppose) by the need to survive.

I've also heard that whenever in history societies have opted for marital agreement forms of choosing spouses that one's sexual partnering becomes a separate issue from one's marital partnering. Hence, in those sociaties its not uncommon for people to have children by their marital partner AND by one or more outside sexual partners. That is, of course, where the society hasn't so devalued sex vis-a-vis responsibility that many people become largely asexual. (I'd be surprised, though, that anywhere in the land of anciet sexuality texts would anyone today be largely asexual.)

And, yes, I'd heard that India contains many cultures and many languages. In fact, that's why the rise of English as the language of governance and business there has been so helpful in giving people a common base for their mutual dealings. (I bet many Americans never realized that India has more English speakers today than any other nation in the world.)

Anyway, each tribe in India has its own traditions (language, etc.) plus English and the cultural overlay the 100 years of English***le brought. What part of India do you live in? (My first guess might be one of the more afluent areas such as Madras or Bangalore, but that's just a guess.)

Are these marriages b***een close kin legal in your area? ...legal all over India?

Also, how does your area (or all of India) deal with the Age of Consent issue?

And at what age does a young girl or young boy typically have their first sex? Is that first sex typically with someone unrelated or does some relative initiate the young?

I told all of the rest of you I wasn't a writer. How perceptive of "Innocent" to realize I write like a third grader. A third grader who writes 'porn'! LOL I guess that shows me!

Nature would rather have you have anal sex with a cat.

quote:

---

Originally posted by VansGayer:
The ultimate meaning of sex is to create a child. A child made from two family members is most likely really fucked up. This is natures way of saying you shouldn't have sex with your fucking family members. It's not just society that says it, it's a fucking rule of nature.

Nature would rather have you have anal sex with a cat.

And if you're Christian, you'll go to hell.

---

I'm sure there's a meaning in there somewhere.

Gosh, to think it took someone of such character and insight to point out that what my father and I have isn't love but purely some back alley illicit sexual experience that others can jerk off too. How grateful I am that someone so intelligent would share these profound insights into MY life.

Icy, but probably justified, considering the accusation directed at you.