Incest pics, videos and casesIncest Pic of the DayThe Incest LinksThe Incest Chatrooms
  The Incest Board
  Incest Experiences
  How young is "too young"? (Page 6)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
This topic is 8 pages long:   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   How young is "too young"?
LilEmily
Rookie

Posts: 5
From: Toronto, Ontario, canada
Registered: Mar 2003

posted March 01, 2003 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LilEmily     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am new and I was fascinated by this long thread. So few women or girls said anything and so many men taking about sex from their point of view and from their expertise. It is always foolish it seems to me to be categorical about knowledge - and that includes being categorical about girls like Daddy is. I think much harm has been done to children by bad parents - and that can include incest but doesn't neccessarily include incest. Much harm is also done by appropriating the experience of others - we who had sex "young" have our own voices and our knowledge is valid. The sex I had with my dad did not harm me - it nourished me. He started me when I was 9 - he had anal sex with me when I was 11 - he began vaginal when I was 14. I looved it and i love him. That doesnt mean that it would be good for all little girls to have their dad start sexual touching at 9. As a culture we are so hung up and screwed about sex it is pathetic! And most of the "rules" whther laws or expert knowledge end up denying the feelings and experiences of women and girls. You only listen to us when we are helpless "victims". And you get to ignore us and claim we have false consciousness when u dont agree. What arrogance.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 01, 2003 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is always foolish it seems to me to be categorical about knowledge - and that includes being categorical about girls like Daddy is.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please quote me where you say I am "categorical" about (incest) knowledge. If you have followed this thread from its inception, and especially the other threads where issues about "informed consent" and the like come up, you will see a natural evolution in my thinking.

My views, by the way, do not come from myself in their origin. I have interviewed dozens of people on this site by now, listened to others, and the views I express with my "voice" is the distillation of those many voices. As a consequence, I have reached some tentative conclusions (subject always to new information from people I discuss with). In fact, my view at present seems to coincide with your view as presented here.

I do strive for clarity in my writing, and this sometimes makes readers mistake clarity of expression for fixity of ideas or an authoritarian point of view. This would be misleading. It is just not my style to say things in a round-about way.

That having been said, I think there are some nearly universal truths to be gained in any area of human experience, including incest. One fairly universal truth is that almost nobody is looking for the truth but only to have their opinion validated. Another is that everybody has a right to his/her opinion, but not everybody's opinion is right. "Right" does not imply moral rightness. It implies squaring with experienceable facts. It implies not being attached to any particular set of facts but always seeking a larger picture. Truth is not a permanent address; it is a journey. Currently, I am writing a book thanks to the material and cooperation of several people in this site.

I would be pleased to discuss with you.

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 01, 2003 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
LilEmily,

Its so nice (actually, wonderful) to hear a woman's voice speaking up here. We have so few doing so -- and soooooo many older men. Deep down, men don't, nor can't understand what it is to be a woman, nor women understand what it is to be a man. But disclosing some of our individual experiences and feelings certainly should help each of us reading these posts.

Thank you, then, for speaking up. Keep it up, please.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 01, 2003 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by b4rry:
LilEmily,

Its so nice (actually, wonderful) to hear a woman's voice speaking up here. We have so few doing so -- and [b]soooooo many older men. Deep down, men don't, nor can't understand what it is to be a woman, nor women understand what it is to be a man. But disclosing some of our individual experiences and feelings certainly should help each of us reading these posts.

Thank you, then, for speaking up. Keep it up, please.[/B]


B, when you begin by stating, categorically, that men "cannot understand" what it is to be a woman, and vise versa, you begin by blocking communication. And, you make the pronouncement for ALL people. It would help me if you would speak for yourself: "I cannot understand..."

Fact is men and women are human beings. If we start with that common understanding, we can communicate. At bottom, nearly everyone feels misunderstood. We share that. And that can be changed--at the level of human being. When we do not share understanding it is because one or the other has not contacted him/herself at the level of human beingness and is caught up in a limited/limiting role.

IP: Logged

mnfun
Member

Posts: 49
From: Minneapolis Minnesota
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 01, 2003 08:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mnfun     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Deep down, men don't, nor can't understand what it is to be a woman, nor women understand what it is to be a man.

I Agree with you, I won't even pretend to know what it is like to be a man.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 01, 2003 10:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mnfun:
[QUOTE] Deep down, men don't, nor can't understand what it is to be a woman, nor women understand what it is to be a man.


I Agree with you, I won't even pretend to know what it is like to be a man.
[/QUOTE]


Why don't you know this?

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 01, 2003 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perhaps she took sex ed.

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 01, 2003 10:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Or maybe I've got it backwards (again), and she's the one who didn't take sex ed. I get so confused by such things.

IP: Logged

LilEmily
Rookie

Posts: 5
From: Toronto, Ontario, canada
Registered: Mar 2003

posted March 02, 2003 12:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LilEmily     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the replies Daddy - and evrybody.

Daddy, I did read the posts. That is why I wroe in. There were assumptions that bothered me. I was taught to always look at the assumptions. Yours started with:
"Asok, you will find them in the Chat section. Whether to believe some of these women is another matter. " (you then explained in a further post). This post and your explanation are why I said I wd just be explained away as having false consciousness by those who believe father daughter incest when daughter is young is always bad and wrong and harmful.

You later went on with a long post which I copied that said a lot of staff as if it was fact to reach the same conclusion. You make al lot of claims about what children feel or dont feel understand or dont understand .. and you change the age to younger to add to what you say. I sent my post just to make the point that you seem to me to be too certain that you no more than someone who lived it or lives it.

"Biologically, children's hormones are not functioning sexually. They have no sex drive as a result. Whatever goes on with their genitals when an adult stimulates them, it is not the same as for the the adult whose hormones are functioning sexually. If a child has an orgasm--if that is really possible, and I do not know--then it cannot be the same experience as for an adult with mature hormones. And, there may be some subtle damage to the child by bringing on orgasm, if it is possible, before it is motivated by the individual's own hormones instead of externally with an adult finger years ahead of when it would happen otherwise.
Physiologically, clearly the immature pelvis is not ready for childbearing, and that is nature's purpose for sex. So, quite bluntly put, incest with children is not natural from this point of view. Because there is no possibility, pre-menstrually, for pregnancy; and conception is nature's intent. Since this event cannot be brought on earlier than the maturity of the pelvis and associated bodily changes,it follows that sex with a child is motivated by something other than the basic sexual drive, and that children were not meant for sex. The stretching it takes to try to force an adult penis into a tiny, undeveloped vagina, ought to drive the point home to the adult incestor that what he is doing is not in tune with nature.
Psychologically, children are not developed. Depending on the age, there is more or less of a capacity to understand the full significance of the incestual act. The infant, for instance, is completely in a state of sensation and does not foresee the future or remember much of a past (because he/she has practically none to remember). This person cannot foresee consequences such as social castigation or unwanted pregnancy. The fully developed adult can, however, foresee this and more, and has a lifetime of experience on which to guide his/her own behaviour."

Emily

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 02, 2003 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 02, 2003 03:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LilEmily:
Thanks for the replies Daddy - and evrybody.

Daddy, I did read the posts. That is why I wrote in. There were assumptions that bothered me. I was taught to always look at the assumptions. Yours started with:
"Asok, you will find them in the Chat section. Whether to believe some of these women is another matter. " (you then explained in a further post). This post and your explanation are why I said I wd just be explained away as having false consciousness by those who believe father daughter incest when daughter is young is always bad and wrong and harmful.

You later went on with a long post which I copied that said a lot of staff as if it was fact to reach the same conclusion. You make al lot of claims about what children feel or dont feel understand or dont understand .. and you change the age to younger to add to what you say. I sent my post just to make the point that you seem to me to be too certain that you no more than someone who lived it or lives it.

"Biologically, children's hormones are not functioning sexually. They have no sex drive as a result. Whatever goes on with their genitals when an adult stimulates them, it is not the same as for the the adult whose hormones are functioning sexually. If a child has an orgasm--if that is really possible, and I do not know--then it cannot be the same experience as for an adult with mature hormones. And, there may be some subtle damage to the child by bringing on orgasm, if it is possible, before it is motivated by the individual's own hormones instead of externally with an adult finger years ahead of when it would happen otherwise.
Physiologically, clearly the immature pelvis is not ready for childbearing, and that is nature's purpose for sex. So, quite bluntly put, incest with children is not natural from this point of view. Because there is no possibility, pre-menstrually, for pregnancy; and conception is nature's intent. Since this event cannot be brought on earlier than the maturity of the pelvis and associated bodily changes,it follows that sex with a child is motivated by something other than the basic sexual drive, and that children were not meant for sex. The stretching it takes to try to force an adult penis into a tiny, undeveloped vagina, ought to drive the point home to the adult incestor that what he is doing is not in tune with nature.
Psychologically, children are not developed. Depending on the age, there is more or less of a capacity to understand the full significance of the incestual act. The infant, for instance, is completely in a state of sensation and does not foresee the future or remember much of a past (because he/she has practically none to remember). This person cannot foresee consequences such as social castigation or unwanted pregnancy. The fully developed adult can, however, foresee this and more, and has a lifetime of experience on which to guide his/her own behaviour."

Emily



Emily, thank you for taking the time to read and quote me. And I certainly do sense your concern that I, and perhaps others, are jumping to conclusions or worse--invalidating the actual experience of those who know because they have lived/are living with incest happily. I do share your concern. I can imagine you must feel very hesitant to come forward, and I do not want to discourage you.

I will take the time to respond. First, let me say, it is precisely what you said here that caused me to change my mind about incest as much as I have. If you read all my posts (and who would??), you know that my only close encounter with incest was with a previous girl friend who had been ritually abused as a child. It went so far as to her having been forced to slit the throat of her incestual newborn or herself be killed. To save her own life, she murdered her son. She had suppressed her recollection and, to her deep surprise and mine, her tragic pain began to surface unexpectedly during therapy that she entered for another purpose.

I supported her for several years as she went through her pain. When we separated, I was left with the desire to have helped her more but had been unable to, and with the aching question of how this could have happened to her, why nobody knew (a crowd of people were involved), and most of all what incest was about. Years later, I came to this site. I began to read and converse with people like yourself, and gradually my view--the only view I had at that time--altered...

For me to come as far as I have--from contact with probably the worst kind of incest there could be, including ritual murder of an incestual offspring, to even entertaining the idea that some people could actually have had loving incest--was, you may imagine, a big stretch.

Now, I was able to do this because I have a very questioning mind and honest need to know. I have always challenged my teachers and others in authority because I hate deception. So, I did not just "swallow" what I was told here "whole". When I say that my view shifted greatly, I mean it did so after a lot of questioning of myself and others, trying to sift put-ons from truthful accounts. This has meant that I came away with what I believe are pretty honest stories; and it is these upon which I base my tentative conclusions and about which I sometimes wrote here.

In passing, we have to remember that everything that goes on in this Website is just words on a screen. We have zero feedback as to body language and all the other cues we get in everyday life that lead us to believe somebody or to doubt them. We know that some people--especially in the Chat Room--are engaging in fantasies, often without letting others know. In fact, there is some concern even there about being misled: people get incensed quite often when somebody poses as the opposite sex or pretends to be somebody else, perhaps a "regular". There is some concern with truthfulness even in cyberchat, I am happy to say.

I mention this because cyberspace is not like the "real" world, and one simply cannot believe or trust as reliably. Emily, you know you, you know you are telling the truth as you know it. But, you cannot expect everybody to accept it on face value in a cyber site where anybody can pretend anything. Sometimes judging comes from the perspective--not that incest is bad--but that it is simply difficult to know when to trust and believe somebody's story, due to where we are here.

I have said all that so you may have some sense, at least, even in cyberspace, that I am sincere and make great efforts to understand the people here, yourself included if you want to tell your story. Yet, I realize that it is difficult for you to trust MY words! We are all hamstrung with this problem in cyberspace.

++++++++ ======== +++++++++

To answer your points: You are, of course, quoting me out of context when you recalled my words: "whether to believe some of these women is another matter." If you care to recap the subject of the discussion and the whole paragraph, perhaps it would be fairer to us all by way of understanding my intent. (**If next time you cited a thread title and date, it would be easy for me or others to reference. This would also be helpful to me because I would know where, in my evolution, I was at the time I was saying the things you are criticizing.**)

If I recall correctly, I was discussing the very kind of problem of cybersite believability, how to know if anybody is telling the truth. I probably did not mention it, because I did not want to draw attention to the fact, but I knew I was writing a book and I had the responsibility to try to find interviewees who would be truthful. My whole point in writing the book was not to write fiction! I was always asking myself, "are these people for real?" Just like you, I was "questioning the assumptions." I was not making a blanket statement about all women--or men--or about all incest--or all positive incest. Again, without the context of my quote, I am not able to answer more fully. Feel free to quote the context if you like--if this re-hash is not too boring to readers!

I was not talking, by the way, about "false consciousness". You may want to explain to readers what this means, Emily. I was just talking, I think, about BS-ing readers here. Or, I may have been talking about something that came up with my conversations with one or two women here:

I had a dialogue with one woman here that lasted for months. She was remembering her past incest with her father (who had died). It was she, herself, who had begun to wonder if she had misconstrued his intent. Based on his dying words to her, a growing unease had begun to colour her feelings for him. She had had what she described as a romance with him. She had believed he felt the same. Based on his dying words, she now wondered if she had actually been used purely for his sexual gratification and so been deceived. You can imagine her disorientation and anger. I personally tried to encourage her NOT to falsify her past recollections but to do her best to integrate both her interpretations. I tried to tell her that HER love, at least, was beyond doubt. It really made me very, very unhappy to see the only real love in her life be taken away by the workings of even her own mind.

From this kind of disturbing conversation, I began to realize the tragic possibility that a child can perceive incestual love--like everything else it perceives--through tender and magical imagination. Not unlike adults in love. This does not make what this woman felt any the less real--far from it! It just means she MAY have misperceived her father's true intent. I am in no position to judge, and indeed I truly do not want to. She went home to read her dead father's secret diaries, so maybe by now she knows the truth about what he really did feel. I do not envy her journey, but I admire her great courage and search for the truth. I personally hope she finds out he loved her the way she felt and believed he did.

And, she was not the only person I spoke with who, upon questioning, had some doubts about such things as power motives, being used, domination--even amid loving incest. (I am referring to father-daughter only; I have only begun to look into other forms of incest.) Questioning assumptions, Emily.

You quote a long passage about my biological/physiological arguments, but you do not really say what you disagree about or how my statements may be mistaken. You just resort to personal authority, that someone who has lived through incest (good incest)knows more than somebody (like me) who has not. With due respect, that is not an argument, even though it may be true. What, exactly, do you disagree with that I said? It is possible, of course, that somebody who did NOT have incest might know something accurately about incest that the person who lived through incest does NOT know because the latter is "too close" to what is going on and has a deep emotional investment in believing a certain way. Just suggesting.

My "biological/physiological/psychological argument", which you quoted extensively, was my attempt to find something solid about incest that few could deny the reality of. Indeed, you have not denied the reality of my statements so far. You merely suggest "how could you know, you did not have incest?".

My biological/physiological/psychological argument was meant to bring back into the picture of father-daughter incest all but forgotten Mother Nature. I had in mind all the various ways human beings forget to consider the effects our behaviour has on nature. Pollution being one, of course. We want the pleasure and convenience of gasoline cars, plastic products, fast food but do not want the consequences in terms of deterioration of our environment and our health. Incest is no different: the more pleasurable it is, the more we are likely to ignore possible consequences to not only others around us but our own physiological and psychological well being. Point being: when we get a lot of pleasure out of something, we ignore or oppose anything that stands in our way. Even, perhaps, Mother Nature.

Pleasure, if you really look at it, has a violent side to it: it wants to remove or destroy what would prevent its fulfillment. This is why my arguments that question the safety of incest on small children will cause resistance or retaliation from anyone who gains pleasure from the pursuit in question.

Is there anything in what I said, Emily, that is not true about a child's biology or psychology? Is that small pelvis large enough to carry a baby? Are the child's hormones ready to drive that child to mate, bear children, and nurture them? Can a child raise a child? Is there no connection between mind and body? Can a child possibly have the experience of sexuality--not having the anatomy and hormone profile yet--that the mature adult has? Does "maturity" have no meaning? In the same way, can a child who has not lived through various life experiences predict likely practical consequences, in short, give "informed consent"? I said all this before, but really Emily, is there even one thing in this that is not actually accurate? Is it possible to ignore these facts of nature and not have consequences?

The whole point of my argument was to show that whatever is going on in incest between father and daughter, some of it is not in tune with nature, and it is up to the adult to consider this. And, to suggest that if the adult is being driven by his own need for pleasure, probably he will NOT consider the consequences. And, that clearly, the child is too young to consider these things.
So, if there are consequences, it will be the child's to bear much more than the parent's.

I also meant to suggest that cross-generational incest can never be an equal relationship in the sense that both partners have such wide differences in biological and psychological development that there must be a true "generation gap". I questioned if genuine intimacy can occur where both partners are prevented by nature from being on the same level not only physiologically but psychologically. Adding to that the fact that the father (in this kind of incest) is the provider, protector, punisher, rewarder, guide, etc. for the child, there has to be a huge power difference between the two, and this has a big part in the relationship. I did not start by assuming these things:

I was concerned as to whether the people I interviewed felt this or realized this. I found out that, to varying degrees, they acknowledged this. My question then was whether they could see how this power difference might have affected their adult life in relationship with others. My illustration that "size matters" because it helps create the perceived power inequality between immature child and adult parent in incest ("giant mommy/daddy" and "tiny child")was based on interviews where people actually told me "Daddy was like a god to me, I worshipped him." I actually asked if size--body size--mattered, and this was confirmed several times: "I liked lying under him, feeling small, crushed and protected." This could only happen between a small child and a giant daddy. Size mattered and it created power inequality. What are the consequences of this?

For example, in the course of nature, the older partner will likely die long before the younger partner in cross-generational incest. Will the younger partner (now, say, a young adult) be emotionally mature enough to relate to partners other than the parent when the parent has died? Or, will the young woman, say, seek "older men" and try to recapture the daddy-feeling?

In fact, very many woman I interviewed here and on telephone chat lines (countless numbers on the telephone lines) have said they seek older men now. Ironically, quite a few of these women had their fathers die before their relationships could perhaps naturally have ended, so this may have played a part in their seeking older partners. Some of these adult women seeking older men found themselves unable to relate to their partners because their partners are NOT their daddies in their own minds! These women remain lost and seeking and unable to commit, I have noticed. Some are unable to have "adult" (non-incest based) relationships with partners. I called this "fixation". Some do not have this problem. Are there no consequences to cross-generational incest? Could the 9 or 10-year-old predict these kind of outcomes? Could--or would--the parent? These were my concerns.

I hope this gives you some perspective on where I am coming from and that I worked really hard to gain honest, accurate information from the people here about incest. Mine are not uninformed opinions based on my own bias. And if there is bias, I welcome being shown that. But, whoever disagrees would have to produce some facts of their own or from interviewing others for me to accept them in place of what I have already gained. I am open to change, but only on the basis of evidence.

In the end, it comes down to what one wants, Emily. In one of my posts to you, I asked you what you want from us (your readers). I want to find out the truth about incest. Not support or oppose it.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 02, 2003 04:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I want to find out the truth about incest. Not support or oppose it.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I need to clarify this last statement. I want to support what seems to me to be healthy, loving incest and to oppose the kind of abuse and torture my previous girlfriend went through. Just as I would support kindly actions and oppose hurtful actions outside the relationship of incest.

I also want to examine the difference between intention and outcome. We may intend actions lovingly or kindly but they may have unkind or unloving outcomes. That is what this whole discussion around physiological/psychological readiness, Mother Nature, etc. was about.

At bottom, I am saying that we CAN know things for sure if we proceed carefully and impartially enough, not blinded by our own preference for a particular pleasure.

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 02, 2003 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Daddy, can you boil your novel down into a Cliff's Notes sort of quick statement? I didn't come here to read novels.

IP: Logged

gerald
Member

Posts: 67
From:
Registered: Feb 2003

posted March 02, 2003 06:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gerald     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Daddy (Quote - "All I am saying at bottom is that we CAN know things for sure..."

I'm sorry, but you can't. You were never there. It's that simple. You cannot know what it is to make love to one's own mother as a woman and to know her responsiveness as a woman AND as one's mother. To know one another as mother and son and as man and woman. The sheer complexity of the intertwining of emotions and feelings simply cannot be described because they come with the speed of lightning and are felt simultaneously or nearly so in lovemaking. Then there is the lovely thereafter when mother and son are living their lives together. Mother and son together? Man and woman together? I doubt that my mother and I could have clearly identified the difference. They simply were mingled together.

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 02, 2003 06:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How does this UltimateBB software work? This long thread is very, very slow responding, but another site using UltimateBB is slowere still -- at everything.

Daddy, I actually read through all that, finding much there a restatement of what you've said before. It was nice, though, to hear it all together in one post. I wonder how many other people will do your words the justice of wading through them all.

Now...

One thing keeps getting swept aside: Not all relationships, even loving relationships, are based on the same foundations nor operate on the same manner. But I keep hearing tones of the "standard" adult male - adult female relationship creeping in to many posts here (not just one or two of yours, Daddy -- here and there). In fact, though, I suspect most same-generation and cross-generation incest is different, and that the participants feel somewhat so too. (And I'm not evening mentioning in that the occasional multiperson situation.)

What I'd like to know is HOW DO THE INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED FEEL? And in what ways do they see their situation as similar to or different from "standard" male - female relationships in their culture?

If more participants spoke up to clue the likes of me in on this, I'm sure we all could get a better understanding of this thread's (and other threads') central question.

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 02, 2003 06:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ooops - I shouldn't be so presumptuous that only male-female relationships are involved. After all, boys play with other boys when they're young -- and such usually doesn't effect much what sort of adults they are. From what I can tell, the same happens among girls. And in some cases same-sex incest happens among adults. I'd like to hear from all these folks as well.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 03, 2003 02:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gerald:
Daddy (Quote - "All I am saying at bottom is that we CAN know things for sure..."

I'm sorry, but you can't. You were never there. It's that simple. You cannot know what it is to make love to one's own mother as a woman and to know her responsiveness as a woman AND as one's mother. To know one another as mother and son and as man and woman. The sheer complexity of the intertwining of emotions and feelings simply cannot be described because they come with the speed of lightning and are felt simultaneously or nearly so in lovemaking. Then there is the lovely thereafter when mother and son are living their lives together. Mother and son together? Man and woman together? I doubt that my mother and I could have clearly identified the difference. They simply were mingled together.


Gerald (although I doubt you will be reading this now that you are gone), I concede. You are right: I can NOT know how it was to be with my mother or how it was to be with yours. I can know THAT for sure. Thank you for pointing this out.

Ultimately, however, there is the same separateness to ALL individual experience. We never can know another's mind and heart for certain. Still, in our loneliness, we try.

We CAN, however, know for certain certain things ABOUT each other, ABOUT relationships. What you said about breeders' experience with incestual animal matings is a certainty about that kind of relationship. It is the same as what I have been saying about human incestual matings.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 03, 2003 02:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
B4rry, thank you for taking the time to read my lengthy post. I know it irks and tires you.

I reiterated in order to summarize for Emily the various topics and to make the point that all these topics fit together to create an emerging picture of incest from a perspective representing some of the many people here, including myself.

I fully agree: the whole point of my being here was to find out the experience of others and attempt to understand, as well as I can, albeit from the outside, what it was like for them. I am still open to that.

I already "hear" the "walls" echoing in here with Gerald gone.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 03, 2003 02:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

One thing keeps getting swept aside: Not all relationships, even loving relationships, are based on the same foundations nor operate on the same manner. But I keep hearing tones of the "standard" adult male - adult female relationship creeping in to many posts here (not just one or two of yours, Daddy -- here and there). In fact, though, I suspect most same-generation and cross-generation incest is different, and that the participants feel somewhat so too.[/B][/QUOTE]

B, I think I may have swept past what you said. Are you suggesting something of the sort Gerald may have suggested as well: that there is a whole different KIND of relationship in incest?

Something, perhaps, in which (speaking of cross-generational anyhow) child-adult, male-female, parent-child, sexual-lover get somehow all blended like pastel colors, with no clear boundaries? So that what we are trying to understand is something really quite "alien", unique, to someone in whom the roles are more distinct and separated not only by role but by time (having outgrown the child, one is now the mature adult)? All the roles, functions, feelings, and "ages" of the person all co-mingling?

I sort of saw that in my incested girl friend, and it had a way of drawing parts of me out and mixing them with other parts of me. If I could have let it all happen, I might have become childlike, fatherlike, adult, sexual, all more or less at the same time, and all sorts of emotions from every era in my own life would have come to consciousness. Actually, some of this happened. The undiscovered "country" Gerald spoke about?

I have to admit, I really do understand a lot less than I thought I did before tonight and both yours and Gerald's final posts. Please give me some feedback on this.

IP: Logged

notmyfault
Member

Posts: 245
From: Cali-fornicating
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 03, 2003 02:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for notmyfault     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If I could have let it all happen, I might have become childlike, fatherlike, adult, sexual, all more or less at the same time, and all sorts of emotions from every era in my own life would have come to consciousness. Actually, some of this happened.

a ha! this sounds interesting. I have found that when I let parts of me merge during THE ACT (and that's probably not exclusively what you were talking about), it produces really thrilling moments. Of course, the fear is, once the genie is out of the bottle, you might have some stupid fetish swallow you. So far, so good for me.

Care to share? The mergey stuff sounds really provocative.

IP: Logged

LeopoldMozart
Rookie

Posts: 6
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted March 03, 2003 02:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeopoldMozart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
zitzed by a recovering porn addict with 2 years abstinence.

[This message has been edited by LeopoldMozart (edited October 01, 2005).]

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 03, 2003 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by notmyfault:
If I could have let it all happen, I might have become childlike, fatherlike, adult, sexual, all more or less at the same time, and all sorts of emotions from every era in my own life would have come to consciousness. Actually, some of this happened.

a ha! this sounds interesting. I have found that when I let parts of me merge during THE ACT (and that's probably not exclusively what you were talking about), it produces really thrilling moments. Of course, the fear is, once the genie is out of the bottle, you might have some stupid fetish swallow you. So far, so good for me.

Care to share? The mergey stuff sounds really provocative.



Notmyfault, Ha! Sounds like I should listen to my "backburner" mental promptings. Maybe I hit a chord here? Say something about "mergey stuff"? OK:

The thing I noticed about my girlfriend (the one I keep mentioning who was incested brutally, my first close encounter with incest) was how emotional she was. Really in touch with her feelings and direct about talking about them. It was a real challenge for me to be that in touch, much less actually talk about my feelings when they were happening. Soon enough, though, she was telling me things I felt before I felt them. I thought she was interpreting me, "putting feelings in my mouth", and got angry with her for doing that.

For example, she told me she could see in my eyes that I loved her only a few days after we'd met. I denied it. I said I did not feel that yet. Later, I realized I had, and I was letting her know from the trapped person part of me, through the windows of my prison (my eyes) that I loved her. She, from her side, did not know that I did not consciously feel those feelings. You can imagine what a challenge she was for me! This was how I entered "mergy stuff", screaming and kicking.

When we got to know each other better, and would touch--anyplace on our bodies, even fingertips--there was an easiness to being very still with each other. In that blessed stillness we would seem to drift into each other--through the point of physical contact. I have always been sensitive to energy, other people's and my own. Not so much to emotions but to energy or energy fields, and to physical sensation. She was the same, only much more in contact with her emotions than I. When we touched, as I say, we would flow into each other and lose the sense of separate identities. "Inner swimming" she called it. We would ride waves of peaceful sensations of pleasure, becoming increasingly part of one another. When we would separate, it was like coming suddenly or slowly out of deep water, and always we were refreshed and fulfilled... I would add that most of the time this had nothing to do with genital sexuality. It was a kind of pan-sensuality and almost spirituality. All I knew was that it eliminated every trace of loneliness and separateness in each of us. We had "visited the other shore": merged.

That was the good stuff. Then there was what she called the "string mop effect". That was where, when we were back to "being normal", it was difficult for each of us to spearate what was "hers" from what was "mine", sort of like two string mops that fell on the floor and their strings got all mixed up together, the same color, and needed to be untangled so each one could go its own way. We had what therapists call "introjections" and "projections" going on. She would say I was telling her she was "wrong" or "bad" (projecting an intention onto me) when I was sure I wasn't. Well, almost sure, because I remembered she could see my feelings before I could, so I really was unsure and got defensive. Or, she would find herself thinking a thought that I would typically think, or a tone of voice from her own throat sounded to her like mine (introjection). We were "rubbing off on each other". This caused a lot of the arguments we were having. In other words, re-establishing boundaries and our distinct identities was becoming very problematic ("string mop effect").

We, as you know, broke up because she projected her abusive father's image onto me and tried, one quiet morning by the sink, to choke me, saying: "Admit it! You are trying to kill me!" (I related this story last year on this Forum.) Such was one of the dangers of our merging and re-emerging.

I found that incested people seem to have a wonderful ability to merge with another person (at least with me) while having a generally difficult time maintaining boundaries--emotionally, physically, psychologically. This seems to be the result of their early childhood incest, this loss of firm boundaries. We could discuss this issue.

This was mergy stuff between two people. In terms of mergy stuff within oneself: I will respond with that next time. Just ran out of time.

IP: Logged

gerald
Member

Posts: 67
From:
Registered: Feb 2003

posted March 03, 2003 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gerald     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Daddy

I couldn't stay away from this forum even for one day!. After reading your post about "pastel colors" in the blending of emotions, I must congratulate you once again on your perception. Frankly it amazes me that you can verbalize so well what I have difficulty in doing - and I was there - and you were not. "Pastel colors" struck a chord because as a strictly very amateur "lover" of art I always liked the French Impressionists. I understood your phrase immmediately.(the lovely blurring (without feeling that one wants a "sharper" view, and, of course, the lack of definition of "borders") yes, there is a blending of emotions and consciousness of relationships (mother and son , man and woman, man who loves mother and knows her as a woman, mother who loves son and knows him as a man, the bed gets quite crowded but without conflict!) You are correct if you mean to say that an incestual relationship (at least of mother and son)is totally different from any other man/woman relationship. Obviously the sheer physical acts of sex are the same. It is the emotional reactions that are different. Let me narrow that. The very reactions in pleasure involved in the sex act are different. Please don't ask me to be more specific. I can't. It's all part of that lightning reaction of shifting feelings and emotions that goes on between mother and son during lovemaking.

I'm glad I have made the discussion even more murkier!

IP: Logged

gerald
Member

Posts: 67
From:
Registered: Feb 2003

posted March 03, 2003 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gerald     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mnfun:
[QUOTE] Deep down, men don't, nor can't understand what it is to be a woman, nor women understand what it is to be a man.


I Agree with you, I won't even pretend to know what it is like to be a man.
[/QUOTE]

mnfun

Don't you think that women have a very intimate understanding of how men think? If they do,(and I know they do when they live with that man) then they also know what a man is "feeling" at a particular moment. You know men intimately by your own statements in this forum. A man who knows a woman in bed and lives with her surely gets to have some knowledge of how she thinks. (unless he is a complete fool) I have never accepted the idea that a man and a woman living together in intimacy will not get to know one another in a very deep sense. Granted that my experience is limited since I only lived with one woman in my life but really it seems doubtful to me that a loving woman won't know her man to his very core.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 03, 2003 10:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gerald:
[B]Daddy

I couldn't stay away from this forum even for one day!. After reading your post about "pastel colors" in the blending of emotions, I must congratulate you once again on your perception. Frankly it amazes me that you can verbalize so well what I have difficulty in doing - and I was there - and you were not. "Pastel colors" struck a chord because as a strictly very amateur "lover" of art I always liked the French Impressionists. I understood your phrase immmediately.(the lovely blurring (without feeling that one wants a "sharper" view, and, of course, the lack of definition of "borders") yes, there is a blending of emotions and consciousness of relationships (mother and son , man and woman, man who loves mother and knows her as a woman, mother who loves son and knows him as a man, the bed gets quite crowded but without conflict!) You are correct if you mean to say that an incestual relationship (at least of mother and son)is totally different from any other man/woman relationship.
==============

Gerry! What a surprise to have you back! I am so very glad.

I try very deeply to understand you and your relationship with your mother. I am not sure why I try so hard. But, the part of me that is trying, that selects what you tell me are, amazingly, just the right words--that part of me is the creative part and where I need to spend more time.

In trying to understand you, I have to access a part of myself that is somewhat unconscious, and when I do, you tell me I begin to understand you. Perhaps I gain a misty sense, a perfume of love your mother and you shared, through your words. There in your rhythms, tones, silences and sounds. I do know your words create feelings and images of colors, always unfamiliar to me but always peaceful. When words come from this place, you tell me I come close to understanding you. It may be I offer you in return the chance to be understood, at least a little, now that your mother is gone?

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 03, 2003 11:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gerald:
[B] mnfun

Don't you think that women have a very intimate understanding of how men think? If they do,(and I know they do when they live with that man) then they also know what a man is "feeling" at a particular moment. You know men intimately by your own

Gerry, if I may respond, also, to this question: based on my experience with women, it seems to me that consciously most women do not know how men think and accept men's way of thinking even less. However, the ones that do really see into us--like my former beloved--know oh so, so well how we think (or, more, how we feel).

They know about us more than we know about ourselves because they see feelings in us that are unconscious for us. This gives them great insight and--if they are manipulative--great power. When the woman loves what she sees, shows no sign of manipulation or menace, but only love, then the man has reason to trust her love--then that is the love of a lifetime. I imagine this is what must have happened for you, Gerry, with your mother.

Because some of what is in the man is the child-part (the part that usually still needs unconditional love and wants to be comforted and cared for), and because the man is usually conditioned to repress the child in himself so that to himself and the world--especially to women--he seems 'strong', 'independent', 'needing nobody', it is a very rare man that knows or lets show this part of himself. Far more women know this part in a man than the men themselves know. The opposite sort of thing happens with the woman, of course, where there is a little girl child inside needing her mommy and daddy while still being an adult. My sense is that these roles of adult/child and mommy/daddy are very separated and even mostly repressed in the "well-adjusted", non-incestual adult, while in the adult who is involved in incest these roles are blurred and the emotions, sensations, and needs are experienced more or less fludily all at the same time, at least potentially.

Through listening to you, I am now realizing, Gerry, that incest between mother and son (or any other incest coupling) is much different from any other male-female intercourse exactly because it brings into the experience so many emotions, needs, and parts of the individuals all at the same time, all expressed in a single focused sexual act. The illusion is that, because it is a "sexual" act, that by that common fact alone, the experience of the lovers "must be" more or less like any other couple making love. You have taught me to know not so!

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 04, 2003 12:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LeopoldMozart:
Dear Daddy:
1. Even though your posts are long, they are thoughtful and well written, and I always find them rewarding.
2. I'm not sure if you have answered this question before (and if you have, please direct me to its thread) but do you have any evidence other than your ex-girlfriend's word that she was a victim of childhood ritual sexual abuse? For example, were there any positive results of a police or private investigation, on the record confessions by perps, physical evidence (e.g. the remains of a dead child), etc.? I'm asking because, as I'm sure you know, many mentally ill people manufacture memories of childhood ritual sexual abuse. The parameters of delusional material are often culturally circumscribed, and for the same reason that many paranoiacs believe the CIA is tormenting them (as opposed to one believing it is the CIA, another believing it is the Hungarian Secret Police, another believing it is Martha Stewart, etc.) many psychologically troubled people share similar recollections of CRSA. Or, like the psychologically heathy children who made the totally unfounded claims of pre-school abuse, your ex-girlfriend could be a victim of "false memory syndrome." Again, as I'm sure you know, there have been several large studies (The 1994 National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect study, and the Kenneth Lanning FBI study come to mind) which show almost no evidence of any of these accusations being true. Without dismissing your ex-girlfriend's childhood traumas, nor minimizing her suffering, I want to know whether the objective/critical thinking part of you, as opposed to the empathic/compassionate part of you, was ever satisfied that things happened as she said.
Thanks!
Leo

P.S. I really like B4rry's posts too!


Leo, thanks for the kind words of support. I appreciate it. Sometimes, I think nobody reads my stuff through. Hope you will stay awhile.

You asked me if my critical mind accepted the story my ex-girlfriend told me about her ritual abuse incest. In a word: No.

In a sense, I was intimidated by her into not so much as thinking along those lines. At the time, I very much needed her love. She, on the other hand, needed me to not only be with her but believe her. When I so much as raised a hint of doubting her story, she did not become more lost and despairing, she became intolerant, rejecting and angry. She was so vigilent she could detect in me even the slightest hint of a "betraying" thought, or so I believed. In short, she had become punishing, abusive and I her victim. I really did not know how to question her without upsetting both of us profoundly. I valued our relationship too much (rightly or wrongly) to pursue the question with her.

Every few days, she would recount to me some harrowing new self-recollection. Weeping uncontrollably in my arms, she would tell me in graphic detail how she had come to term, the cult was called to assemble, and she was laid out on the marble slab in her parents' cellar, her uncle handing her the butcher knife and telling her that when the baby came out, she was to slit its throat or be killed with the same blade. It was like something you hear about happening in Nazi Germany concentration camps. I had the kind of disorientation I imagine many who were not there experienced: the only words for it were "too horrible to believe, too monstrously horrible to believe human beings could act this way!" I went into some kind of denial so that I was incapable of exercising critical thinking. I challenge any psychologist writing about false memory to hold his/her lover in his arms at the moment of discovery like this--false memory or not--and hang onto his/her faculties of objectivity.

Fortunately, we had many happy hours and days together where she was sunny and funny to be with, and we loved each other passionately. Sometimes, in those blessed vacations from hell, I would gently approach her with my questions. I wondered, for example, how her pregnancy escaped notice in her gym classes and locker room at school, not to mention her doctor's office from time to time. She just said she covered it well. I think she said her doctor was in on the cult, although I am not sure anymore.

I naturally asked her if she had called the police to investigate now that she was remembering. When she had recalled enough detail, she told me she had filed a complaint with the police and was awaiting a reply. While I knew her, they had not replied. I think she did not have enough hard evidence, if I recall, at the time. One of her abusers was her brother. She told me she wrote to him or called him and he denied any recollection. Her father had already died by the time she was remembering. Her mother, however, about whom she had ambivalent feelings ("at least she showed me some love when she did it")was someone she went back East to actually confront. We had broken up by then. I only learned that she had seen her mother and that she had died sometime later. I do not know what, if anything, her mother may have admitted. All I can say is that she was doing what she could to confront various people whom she believed raped her. She also wrestled with her ambivalence about doing that: fear of not being believed by police and other authorities, fear of her own emerging outrage against her family,
just the whole awesome stress of it all. I encouraged her to take aggressive action, and I offered to help her by calling authorities. True to her courageous, independent spirit, she wanted to do this herself, and she did.

As to possible false memory, I do not know. I do not know how I would know. I have not done much reading on the subject, either. I do know from a psychologist that psychological research is not very scientific on the subject and that, according to him, lots of patients have been hypnotized, so to speak, by their therapists into coming up with memories of abuse sort of to "please" their therapists' expectations. Really, falsified memories.
I do agree with my ex' that it is certainly insulting and demeaning to a suffering patient for their therapist--their support person--to tell them that they are essentially lying or deluded. In the final analysis, who can tell what memories are false and what are real? For instance, my brother and I sat at the same dinner table while my father argued with me, night after night when we were young. He remembers the same events much differently from me, attributing characteristics to our father that I do not attribute to him as a consquence. No big trauma involved here, and yet we have two different "pasts". Which one is right? We can never know. How much more difficult with real trauma.

I do know this, my ex' remembers threatening to choke me much differently than I do. Yet,a few days later at the time, she confessed to her therapy self-help group that she "tried to kill the man I love". She told me last year she remembers "giving you a pretty hard time that day". I carry her fingerprints on my throat. I know what happened! I was going to talk to her about our "differing recollections of that day", but we parted company yet again.

I wish I knew the answer to your question. I only know for sure that she truly suffered incredible pain. And that she was extremely defensive and eventually hostile to even the slightest question about the accuracy of her recollection. This could have come as much from her desperate need for support at such a time of crisis, as it could have come from a need to defend the belief she was abused.

What do you think about "false memory syndrome"? Mind you, there are people in our Forum who will feel very intimidated by any suggestion that they may be falsifying either their memory or their perception of their incestual relationship. One person in the Chat Room is afraid to post here because she is experiencing a lot of bitter rage from being abused, she says, by her father. She is afraid that nobody wants to listen to her, that all we want to talk about is "good" incest.

I get the sense from your way of writing that you may be a therapist or student of psychology yourself? Will you let us in on yourself a bit, Leo?

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 04, 2003 12:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Notmyfault, to continue answering your question about "mergy stuff" within oneself, I am probably not the best person to ask about this. I tend to stay in one corner of my persona most of the time unless I am kidding around with somebody, having an intense argument, or in love with somebody and in close quarters. I personally find my laugh a good, spontaneous barometer of what I am feeling on an unconscious level at any moment. Various "personalities" or ages in my personality come out in the sound of my laugh and, I am sure, on my face. In relation to a woman I am close to, I am sure various ages of me are expressing themselves emotionally, physically, tonally if not acknowledged by me consciously. I get that from watching the "mirror" of the other person's face as she responds to my mercurial changes. That would be me blending with myself in a watercolor wash. But I have a hard time cataloguing any but the primary colors. I cannot separate the colors in the wash.

Ask me some specific questions and maybe I can answer. I am not sure if this helps.

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 04, 2003 06:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
FYI - I'm reading along. This actually is good stuff. I don't feel like criticising it, but I'm doing some extra work right now ($$$). No time to respond.

IP: Logged

gerald
Member

Posts: 67
From:
Registered: Feb 2003

posted March 04, 2003 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gerald     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Daddy

Perhaps in my post to mnfun I ought to have specifically designated the relationship of a mother and son who are intimate as an example of a woman knowing a man, perhaps to his core. Beginning with the obvious fact that a mother, just by virtue of being a mother, surely has a certain intuition about her son, (an intuition that becomes ever more acute with time) then sexual intimacy gives her truly acute insights into him - as indeed, I would assume that any woman gets insights into a man with whom she has lived in loving intimacy. It is simply that a mother starts with the added advantage that she delivered into the world and raised this man with whom she now shares their bed. Now if the son (man) feels no need to retain a "secret core" because that incredible degree of intimacy with this woman, his mother and the sum of emotions and feelings about her have brought him to total trust of her, then he feels no need to shield any part of himself from her.(Who ever heard of a loving mother who would sit in public judgmental condemnation of her child?) She is wonderfully, in the same person, a woman he is totally open to and, at the same time, she is his mother,a woman that long experience and instinct taught him from babyhood to trust. In short, she is the one woman with whom (in the old phrase)he may wear his heart on his sleeve, without fear of being wounded. He cares not that she knows him intimately in the innermost reaches of his mind. She gives him total trust and if he has any compulsions in the matter, he, in turn, wants to give her his total trust as well. (Yes, my mother used to say that I didn't lie very well to her at age 5 and that my technique had never improved. One of the penalties of being so close to her but then some prisoners come to love their chains!)

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 04, 2003 12:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gerald:
Daddy

Perhaps in my post to mnfun I ought to have specifically designated the relationship of a mother and son who are intimate as an example of a woman knowing a man, perhaps to his core. Beginning with the obvious fact that a mother, just by virtue of being a mother, surely has a certain intuition about her son, (an intuition that becomes ever more acute with time) then sexual intimacy gives her truly acute insights into him - as indeed, I would assume that any woman gets insights into a man with whom she has lived in loving intimacy. It is simply that a mother starts with the added advantage that she delivered into the world and raised this man with whom she now shares their bed. Now if the son (man) feels no need to retain a "secret core" because that incredible degree of intimacy with this woman, his mother and the sum of emotions and feelings about her have brought him to total trust of her, then he feels no need to shield any part of himself from her.(Who ever heard of a loving mother who would sit in public judgmental condemnation of her child?) She is wonderfully, in the same person, a woman he is totally open to and, at the same time, she is his mother,a woman that long experience and instinct taught him from babyhood to trust. In short, she is the one woman with whom (in the old phrase)he may wear his heart on his sleeve, without fear of being wounded. He cares not that she knows him intimately in the innermost reaches of his mind. She gives him total trust and if he has any compulsions in the matter, he, in turn, wants to give her his total trust as well. (Yes, my mother used to say that I didn't lie very well to her at age 5 and that my technique had never improved. One of the penalties of being so close to her but then some prisoners come to love their chains!)


Gerald, Yes, I found myself just nodding and saying "yes" to your words. Meaning, that would be "it", a dream of love come true. Who would NOT want to be loved this way?

The awful irony is that we search all our lives, many of us, for a woman whom we can trust like this, often finding someone with whom we struggle to "work it out", get through the hurt and distrust to a place in which we can start to trust each other, sometimes held fitfully together in the little rocking lifeboat by passion and what ****** for love...only to find in the end our efforts failed. So, we try again or become hermits. The irony being, maybe what we sought was no farther away than our mother's arms. If, only, our mother could be trusted. It is such a joy to know yours could.

IP: Logged

LilEmily
Rookie

Posts: 5
From: Toronto, Ontario, canada
Registered: Mar 2003

posted March 04, 2003 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LilEmily     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Daddy

Thanks for listening to me.
I think you were claiming too much narrow when you said a lot of that stuff about biology and psychology. and I think this quoting thing is a bit controlling? People know what u said and if they dont they can check?

This is what i was trying to say:
1. I think it is not proof to say it is necause mother nature says so. That is like saying girls have to be mothers and cant be astronauts or something because mother nature made boys stronger. Science has made many many mistakes and stuff about "mother nature" isn't even science. Kids have been married and had kids at 12 or even 11 for a long time. Spometimes that was terrible. sometimes it wasnt. Now girls start puberty as yung as 9. Doesnt mean all girls who r 9 shd have sex. it also doesnt mean there is like a rule that you can "know".
2. I think sex and having babies are 2 different things. I think it is a little creepy actually to talk about having a baby as the way to know if a girl (or boy?) is old enuf for sex. Some people who can have babies
are way yung to have sex. Sex is about a lot of stuff and pleasure and being close and a lot of stuff is what sex is.
3. There are lots of unequal relationships. Saying its never equal with a parent is same thig as saying its never equal. There are femninits who say all sex is rape.
4. "false conscioussness" is when you say someone thinks somethig because they are too messed up, or too young, or too brainwashed to really underwtand. usually means they dont agree with whoever is in charge of what people think.
5. Using ur power to abuse anyone is wrong. In a world where power gets abused all the time and if ur stronger or richer u get ur way - then ppeople and kids will get abused.
6. When everyone tells you u are all screwed up its hard to say no I'm not. telling kids how scary and bad sex is can be abuse too.
E

"My biological/physiological/psychological argument was meant to bring back into the picture of father-daughter incest all but forgotten Mother Nature. I had in mind all the various ways human beings forget to consider the effects our behaviour has on nature. Pollution being one, of course. We want the pleasure and convenience of gasoline cars, plastic products, fast food but do not want the consequences in terms of defloration of our environment and our health. Incest is no different: the more pleasurable it is, the more we are likely to ignore possible influences to not only others around us but our own physiological and psychological well being. Point being: when we get a lot of pleasure out of something, we ignore or oppose anything that stands in our way. Even, perhaps, Mother Nature. Pleasure, if you really look at it, has a violent side to it: it wants to remove or destroy what would prevent its fulfillment. This is why my arguments that question the safety of incest on small children will cause resistance or retaliation from anyone who gains pleasure from the
pursuit in question.

Is there anything in what I said, Emily, that is not true about a child's biology or psychology? Is that small pelvis large enough to carry a baby?
Are the child's hormones ready to drive that child to mate, bear children, and nurture them? Can a child raise a child? Is there no connection
between mind and body? Can a child possibly have the experience of sexuality--not having the anatomy and hormone profile yet--that the
mature adult has? Does "maturity" have no meaning? In the same way, can a child who has not lived through various life experiences predict
likely practical consequences, in short, give "informed consent"? I said all this before, but really Emily, is there even one thing in this that is not
actually accurate? Is it possible to ignore these facts of nature and not have consequences?

The whole point of my argument was to show that whatever is going on in incest between father and daughter, some of it is not in tune with
nature, and it is up to the adult to consider this. And, to suggest that if the adult is being driven by his own need for pleasure, probably he will
NOT consider the consequences. And, that clearly, the child is too young to consider these things.
So, if there are consequences, it will be the child's to bear much more than the parent's.

I also meant to suggest that cross-generational incest can never be an equal relationship in the sense that both partners have such wide
differences in biological and psychological development that there must be a true "generation gap". I questioned if genuine intimacy can occur
where both partners are prevented by nature from being on the same level not only physiologically but psychologically. Adding to that the fact
that the father (in this kind of incest) is the provider, protector, punisher, rewarder, guide, etc. for the child, there has to be a huge power
difference between the two, and this has a big part in the relationship. I did not start by assuming these things:

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 04, 2003 09:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by b4rry:
Deep down, men don't, nor can't understand what it is to be a woman, nor women understand what it is to be a man.

Okay, my "go" on this:

First, it was in the context of encouraging a female poster to continue participating -- and, by extension, to encourage other newcomers to participate.

Second, there is a great difference between knowing someone extremely well and knowing what it is to actually be that other person. This is true with same-sex individuals, but especially true born to and living different genders. No man can ever know what it is like to live as a woman through all the stages and situations a woman experiences, nor to see the world through a woman's senses. Likewise, no woman can be a man living as a man. Acquired knowledge and subsequent reasoning is no substitute.

There's real value, then, in hearing each voice from all directions.

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 04, 2003 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When a child and his/her parents come together at birth a history of interaction commences. The combination of ingredients playing out through a sequence of events, with feedback through each person's perception(s) molds all involved, but especially the child. The child grows with a sense of his environment being good, bad or somewhere in between -- and often carries this sense far into adulthood.

Now, suppose children from good, bad or in between environments grow into adults that come to an internet site such as this. How would each see it and react to it and learn (or not) from it?

For instance, Daddy, it sounds like your childhood was vastly different from Gerald's and both were vastly different from mine. I wonder how this has shaped our experiences before coming here and those we've had here. (Likewise for all others reading this.)

Would a person who'd had a rough childhood find "good" incest hard to believe?

Would a person who'd been enveloped in love throughout their childhood find "bad" incest something odd?

Would a person who'd had a fairly "normal" childhood but who'd experienced mutual play with a sibling or cousin during some period in their youth find the notion of "marrying" one's parent hard to comprehend?

A variety of answers to this question may help us understand the variety of posts contributed to this thread.

ps - This is somewhat inspired by reading Daddy's and Gerald's stories, but I'm sure it applies much more widely.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 05, 2003 03:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by b4rry:
When a child and his/her parents come together at birth a history of interaction commences. The combination of ingredients playing out through a sequence of events, with feedback through each person's perception(s) molds all involved, but especially the child. The child grows with a sense of his environment being good, bad or somewhere in between -- and often carries this sense far into adulthood.

Now, suppose children from good, bad or in between environments grow into adults that come to an internet site such as this. How would each see it and react to it and learn (or not) from it?

For instance, Daddy, it sounds like your childhood was vastly different from Gerald's and both were vastly different from mine. I wonder how this has shaped our experiences before coming here and those we've had here. (Likewise for all others reading this.)

Would a person who'd had a rough childhood find "good" incest hard to believe?

Would a person who'd been enveloped in love throughout their childhood find "bad" incest something odd?

Would a person who'd had a fairly "normal" childhood but who'd experienced mutual play with a sibling or cousin during some period in their youth find the notion of "marrying" one's parent hard to comprehend?

A variety of answers to this question may help us understand the variety of posts contributed to this thread.

ps - This is somewhat inspired by reading Daddy's and Gerald's stories, but I'm sure it applies much more widely.


B4rry, Let me say, I find this post of yours actually very creative. And, extremely well-written and thought out. You seem to have really listened and taken to heart two very different kinds post-ers who themselves not only come from very different backgrounds (myself and Gerald) but (at least in my case, and perhaps Gerald's also) are trying to actually "get inside the other's shoes" and really experience where the other is coming from.

An aside to Gerald: speaking for myself, I realize I am involved in a creative process with you, having parts of my mind opened just through reading him. I am realizing how much I missed from my relationship with my mother. But--what I never expected--I have found myself actually thinking much more kindly and respectfully of my mother. Not only this, I am starting to feel the significance of what it means to be the son of the person to whom I really do owe my very life. Amazingly, I have never thought about this in all of my life! I have ONE person to thank for this: Gerald. You did not ask me to see things this way. YOU sees things this way, and through reading YOUR words I began to see things this way. And, it is not "conditioning", I just suddenly shifted. Gerald, I do not know if you realize what a gift you have. I am sure you would say it comes from your mother, and I seem to feel something of your mother's presence in your writing. Thank you both.

Back to you, B4rry:

You seem to have let this creative interaction between Gerald and me play upon you and you have used it to generate some very powerful questions that are actually borne of the stuff of Gerald's and my interactions. This is a wonderful process of ongoing creativity I personally find exciting. THIS is beyond my usual notion of communication. Thank you, B4rry!

I would like to tackle some of your questions, although I think I have already kind of answered them elsewhere:

First, I agree with everything you said above. (Wow!, huh?) I really wonder what people from various conditioned backgrounds would say, reading this site! I know if they read the Chat Room they might have one kind of idea. If they came first to this Forum during the past month or so, they might have a very different reaction than from the Chat Room dialogue. Even if they read the King of Threads (now in its 12th page) last year at this time, then flipped to today's, they would be amazed at the change that has come over this site. But, how would each respond to the same presentation here? A really good question. How can we find out? Maybe, start a thread and ask, B4rry. We can really only ask us who are here and who may be "tuned in" and not posting. Go for it!

Second, would a child who had a rough background find "good incest" hard to believe? I certainly did not have a rough background, as in violent or economically distressed or far from the central values of our culture. The trouble in my life was more psychological: perceiving myself as not receiving enough appreciation, freedom, and love. A profound sense of isolation that eventually turned into chronic, repressed anger and frustration warring with need for love and a lot of love to give. Frustrated talent due, in part, to the foregoing. I never thought about incest until, as you know, I met my ex-girlfriend about ten years ago. I would say that I had a "belief in pain". In other words, I felt the world was a scary and generally painful place. As a pre-teenager I formulated my first philosophical pronouncement: "Look for the worst first, then every surprise will be a good one." Pretty gloomy for a young kid, wouldn't you say? When I met my ex', her incest was without doubt the most horrible second-hand eperience I had ever heard of. So, to answer the question, I found it very difficult to believe anybody could enjoy incest, certainly and not be fooling themselves or be in their right minds.

Would a person who enjoyed a loving relationship with a family member and their love flowed into sexual relations lasting years have difficulty comprehending abusive incest? Maybe Gerald can reply to this one. Or Ruby. Or Puppy. Or Emily. There are lots of people here who can answer this one. I do know, as I said above, there was one person in the Chat Room who told me she was enraged at her father for "using her" for years. She was hoping to find some support here, maybe some counselling, but was feeling like an outcast because she could only find people who said they had loving or at least pleasurable incest. She felt she would be misunderstood or criticized. She was afraid to post her "heretical" story here in the Forum, even when I encouraged her.

You know, we keep skipping over a real problem and never even mention it: this fear of being criticized or judged. It prevents people who enjoy their incest from telling the world. It prevents the people who hated their abusive incest from telling the world and from telling the ones who enjoyed their incest. Fear of criticism is everywhere. It is a real poison. Not the criticalness of others only, but the way we let that criticalness poison ourselves with fear and isolation. Gerald says he and his mother never had this fear. They did not feel negatively judged. They knew what people thought about incest, they were not ignoring reality. Even if they had been negatively judged, he said, he and his mother were so sure of their love, felt so right about themselves and their love, and were hurting no one, that the incest taboo was "irrelevant", and as far as criticism was concerned, the world go "go hang" if it came down to it (I think he said). I think his point was that, if people really have no doubts about the rightness of their feelings (of incest), they are immune to the fear of criticism. He and his mother did not give their power over to the "critics" in the world. I envy and admire that.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 05, 2003 04:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LilEmily:
[B]Hi Daddy

Thanks for listening to me.
I think you were claiming too much narrow when you said a lot of that stuff about biology and psychology. and I think this quoting thing is a bit controlling? People know what u said and if they dont they can check?

This is what i was trying to say:
1. I think it is not proof to say it is necause mother nature says so. That is like saying girls have to be mothers and cant be astronauts or something because mother nature made boys stronger. Science has made many many mistakes and stuff about "mother nature" isn't even science. Kids have been married and had kids at 12 or even 11 for a long time. Spometimes that was terrible. sometimes it wasnt. Now girls start puberty as yung as 9. Doesnt mean all girls who r 9 shd have sex. it also doesnt mean there is like a rule that you can "know".
2. I think sex and having babies are 2 different things. I think it is a little creepy actually to talk about having a baby as the way to know if a girl (or boy?) is old enuf for sex. Some people who can have babies
are way yung to have sex. Sex is about a lot of stuff and pleasure and being close and a lot of stuff is what sex is.
3. There are lots of unequal relationships. Saying its never equal with a parent is same thig as saying its never equal. There are femninits who say all sex is rape.
4. "false conscioussness" is when you say someone thinks somethig because they are too messed up, or too young, or too brainwashed to really underwtand. usually means they dont agree with whoever is in charge of what people think.
5. Using ur power to abuse anyone is wrong. In a world where power gets abused all the time and if ur stronger or richer u get ur way - then ppeople and kids will get abused.
6. When everyone tells you u are all screwed up its hard to say no I'm not. telling kids how scary and bad sex is can be abuse too.
E


Gee, Emily, you did not have to go to the trouble of quoting me all over again in your post! Actually, did you know all you have to do is leave the part of the post you want to quote, highlight the part you want to eliminate, press delete, and what is left over is the part you want. Then, if you start your writing just below what is left from the post you are answering, it is easier for the reader. You have my quote AFTER your response here, and went to such a dear lot of trouble to copy it over. Were you copying it over because I asked you to quote me? I am sorry. I did not mean to put you to this trouble!

When I asked you to quote me it was to understand. I did not want to go to the trouble of scrolling back, at 2 in the morning or whatever and tired, to find the context. Same when I quoted myself: I did not want the readers to have to do that either. Also, my academic background taught me to quote my source, whenever I can, just as yours taught you to question assumptions.

Both Gerald and I agree that inbreeding causes genetic mutations. He cited the commonplace experience of animal breeders. They have no axe to grind about incest, is it good or bad. They just want to raise healthy stock. I cited my readings in science. While science has sometimes been manipulated for political ends (such as genetic experiments in Nazi Germany), or for profit (such as what pharmaceutical companies constantly do), science has discovered some sound facts. That incest dilutes the gene pool and causes increased mutations is a fact. You can mess with fruit fly families, if you want to prove this for yourself in a relatively short time, I should think Emily.

You say I have a narrow view. If you have been reading our posts in the last 24 hours, you should know differently. I have made some pretty big shifts. Also,I took your criticisms seriously and went back over the entire year of my posts the other night, looking and comparing samples. I have, indeed, built my views upon the many views present in here. I could name names. My "voice" is a chorus.

I also stand by the notion that some opinions are more informed than others. Not all opinions are equal. The earth is NOT flat, no matter what anybody wants the "freedom" to think! The biological view I expressed is of the same kind of truth as the round earth. We can go into space and see the spheroid of the earth. We can travel in a circle and come back home. In a similar way, we can experiment with inbreeding and see what happens. This is incontroverable because it is verifiable with our senses and by measurements and the results can be predicted with reasonable accuracy. The same CANNOT be said about most of the opinions people hold--usually without questioning them. Opinions are not equal.

I used the term "Mother Nature" humourously. I meant nature or impersonal forces that form the world and keep it running; natural laws. I was quite serious when I said that we cannot expect to break natural laws and expect no consequences. Most of us do not even think about this when we pursue our personal pleasure. None of this has anything to do with "right" or "wrong". Disobeying Mother Nature is not morally "wrong": it just does not work in the long run. In a big way. Does incest counter nature? I do not know. I just know that inbreeding does. Is incest about sex? Of course, in part, it is. Is sex only about "breeding"? Of course not. But, does it include offspring? Of course it does. Therefore, partners involved in incest have to consider the natural consequences of their sexual activities in the event of pregnancy. Again, this is not "right" or "wrong": it is about sex and genetics. Is there a time that is too early to have children? Of course there is: when the child cannot give birth to a child. Do eleven-year-olds give birth sometimes? Yes, and so do five-year-olds. Incidentally, this is NOT something normal. The age of conception is dropping in the last few decades and is believed to be due to the presence of UNNATURAL, that is, manmade chemicals in the food, air and water known as "xenoestrogens". As I wrote elsewhere, these are plastic, rubber and other molecules that resemble the female hormone estrogen in their effects on the body. They fool the body into maturing too soon. Of course, the minds in those bodies do not mature as rapidly. This is a BIG problem. If you are serious about wanting to challenge what I have said, Emily, I can refer you to the expert in women's hormone issues, a nurse and personal friend, and to some reputable medical sites. This, again, is not a matter of speculation or opinion only. There is good scientific evidence for this statement. My point being that, when ou say children at eleven or so are sometimes ready for pregnancy, you are right--but they are not mentally ready. And, this is not nature making them ready, it is articifical chemicals. And THAT is a form of abuse because it is FORCED upon women without their even knowing it!

I do not know where you ever got the idea that I even remotely suggested that I don't think women should become astronauts and should stay on earth and have babies! I even wrote the eulogy here to the dead astronauts, "Death in the Sky". Two of the heroes were women. I particularly liked the Punjabi woman because I have a fondness for her people. Where did you ever get that from my ideas??

When I said that the female is ready to have babies when the pelvis is mature and the hormone profile is ready, I did not mean that I equated sex with having babies. I did not say or mean that sex is just about having babies! I was simply saying that nature intended sex for reproduction. That is not to say this is the only reason people have sex. It is to say that nature's prime "goal" (if one can speak of nature having an end or goal) is survival, and when it comes to us, it is the survival of our species: ie, survival=sex=reproduction.
It seems one way nature made sure we would couple a lot, and therefore reproduce a lot, was to make sex the most pleasurable experience humans can usually have. And (as I said above), to be sure that the offspring of such pleasurable coupling would have the best chance to survive, mating outside the family was experienced as necessary by early pre-humans. Few would argue with any of this. Can you see any error in this thinking--based on fact?

If biological diversity breeds a strong and colorful human race...if, as the Vulcans say, "Infinite diversity in infinite combinations; in diversity there is strength"...then what of our diverse and divergent opinions here? Should we be very "incestual" and create and tolerate only opinions "close to home", that is, like our own? It would be more comfortable. But it would be very narrow. Or, should we "venture afield" and sample others' views and not try to make them into our own? Is not the task of the human race to somehow unify the many diverse beliefs and opinions, or at the very least, respect them? Not that they are all equal in truth value but that they are all equal in their right to EXIST.

Yes, sex is about a lot of stuff: babies, pleasure, being close. But how is incest different from non-incest sex? This is the point. And it is the babies part that makes incest different: a hazard--genetically.

When I said cross-generational incest involves inequality of power, I stand by that. It always involves this. How can somebody, say, nine years old and somebody thirty years old (or older) be on the same level? Psychologically, is a nine-year-old the same as her thirty-year-old parent, Emily? Doesn't she look up to the parent emotionally not to mention simply physically? Can a nine-year-old or a fourteen-year-old understand, say, a fifty-year-old parent's anxiety about growing old and impotent? Can the fifty-year-old parent understand the nine-year-old or fourteen-year-old's inability to experience empathy or compassion or answer his adult emotional needs? You may think this never happens, but one post-er here confided to me that her father began incest with her at age fourteen, beginning with emptying his heart full of loneliness and emotional neediness on her. She responded as best she could, trying to fill his adult's needs. She lost her childhood in the process, she actually said. And, at the same time, she said she loved him dearly and romantically. What a trade-off. No hazard psychologically to incest? Even pleasurable incest? No power difference? Even well-intentioned incest having no unfortunate consequences on the child? Please examine your assumptions.

False consciousness: I thought it was about false memories or falsified recollections? In other words, when somebody "remembers" being abused but actually was not abused. Their memory is supposedly falsified, perhaps to please the therapist and gain approval, or the supposed memory actually is covering up some real trauma even more painful to remember. In this case the person does not know they are falsifying the memory, they fully believe in it with all their emotion. What you are describing sounds like an ordinary sort of put-down or invalidation of the person's experience. I do not know, I may have this wrong.

I agree with you about abuse. But, you know, what is abuse to you and me may not be to somebody else. Typically, abused people are told by their close friends that they are being abused and they should get out of the relationship. Everybody sees the abuse but the victim. Typically, the victim excuses the abusive partner in various ways, yet the abuse continues. Finally, the victim "gets it" and gets out. It may take years. Was he/she abused before he/she felt abused? How about the abuse of pleasure? We can understand why being beaten or raped is abuse, but what about abuse that feels pleasurable? Is there such a thing? I think there is. Based on experience, women here have told me they received intense joy and love from having incest with their parent, especially from doing whatever the parent, the more dominant partner (their words) wanted. They were there "to please daddy" (or mommy). I am not talking about sado-masochism. I am talking about closeness and really pleasurable sex. Some say they liked feeling "used" by their parent. In many of these women, I saw a submissiveness. This is not my interpretation. They described themselves as submissive--and they liked being that way. One could not argue with that, if it were not for the fact that they were having a very hard time forming relationships with adult males who were not much older than themselves and finding themselves not able to make a commitment. In short, they were not able to be intimate with anybody but their fathers. And, in these two cases I am thinking of, their fathers were now dead. So: they liked their incest but they got fixated on their fathers. Their fathers died. They had become addicted--exactly because they had experienced pleasure. Now, they could not find a replacement. In other words, pleasure had turned into pain. While this happens in every sort of addictive relationship outside of incest, it seems to me the rich rewards of loving incest make this kind of sexual relationship much more powerful exactly because of all the pleasure involved.

I think I have covered the ground and responded to your questions and comments, Emily. If I missed something, let me know. From my perspective, I do not feel you answered my post. I asked for you to tell me what facts I had got wrong. It does not help me to hear that you think my view is too narrow or that you just disagree. I need to know what, exactly, gives you to believe my facts are in error. Or, what facts you have that conflict with mine.

As Gerald pointed out--and I still agree with him on this--in the end, no one can fully understand your experience with your parent. Your experience is your experience, it is neither right nor wrong. It is immune to criticism if you want it to be, if you feel so clear and sure of your love that criticism just cannot touch it. That certainty is a matter of love--not of fact or opinion. You alone have that power.

IP: Logged

gerald
Member

Posts: 67
From:
Registered: Feb 2003

posted March 05, 2003 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gerald     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[An aside to Gerald: speaking for myself, I realize I am involved in a creative process with you, having parts of my mind opened just through reading him. I am realizing how much I missed from my relationship with my mother. But--what I never expected--I have found myself actually thinking much more kindly and respectfully of my mother. Not only this, I am starting to feel the significance of what it means to be the son of the person to whom I really do owe my very life. Amazingly, I have never thought about this in all of my life! I have ONE person to thank for this: Gerald. You did not ask me to see things this way. YOU sees things this way, and through reading YOUR words I began to see things this way. And, it is not "conditioning", I just suddenly shifted. Gerald, I do not know if you realize what a gift you have. I am sure you would say it comes from your mother, and I seem to feel something of your mother's presence in your writing. Thank you both.

Daddy

Someone said once " A wise man changes his mind- a fool,never" I am truly touched by your words. Whatever else, your mother was not a bad person. Few mothers really are and those are usually psychopaths. The older I get the more I realize that some of the "bromides" I heard in my youth really are true. Love is the answer. I was fortunate enough to have someone to send me forth each day with the certain knowledge that I had a refuge to return to, what we humans call a home. Let me emphasize that point. Making love to my mother was a part of our life together. We didn't think of "incest". We thought of each other as mother and son who were united. That union was very close. It was a union first.It happened to be of mother and son. (I have seen unions of unrelated men and women that were very close. We were no different in kind, merely perhaps closer yet)

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 05, 2003 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Daddy's a man of stature, yep-si-doodle-hey!
We measure him in column-inches, doodle-doodle-day.

just pick'n

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 05, 2003 10:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gerald:
[An aside to Gerald: speaking for myself, I realize I am involved in a creative process with you, having parts of my mind opened just through reading you. I am realizing how much I missed from my relationship with my mother. But--what I never expected--I have found myself actually thinking much more kindly and respectfully of my mother. Not only this, I am starting to feel the significance of what it means to be the son of the person to whom I really do owe my very life. Amazingly, I have never thought about this in all of my life! I have ONE person to thank for this: Gerald. You did not ask me to see things this way. YOU see things this way, and through reading YOUR words I began to see things this way. And, it is not "conditioning", I just suddenly shifted. Gerald, I do not know if you realize what a gift you have. I am sure you would say it comes from your mother, and I seem to feel something of your mother's presence in your writing. Thank you both.

Daddy

Someone said once " A wise man changes his mind- a fool,never" I am truly touched by your words. Whatever else, your mother was not a bad person. Few mothers really are and those are usually psychopaths. The older I get the more I realize that some of the "bromides" I heard in my youth really are true. Love is the answer. I was fortunate enough to have someone to send me forth each day with the certain knowledge that I had a refuge to return to, what we humans call a home. Let me emphasize that point. Making love to my mother was a part of our life together. We didn't think of "incest". We thought of each other as mother and son who were united. That union was very close. It was a union first.It happened to be of mother and son. (I have seen unions of unrelated men and women that were very close. We were no different in kind, merely perhaps closer yet)


Gerald, Yes. It is true, all you say. Some of the old truisms are true. And, love is the answer. And home is the place where you are loved and to where you return, where you belong. I never felt that, at least I do not remember. At least now, from your living example, I know what was missing and have a sense of what was needed.

As I said to Inkaboutit, all we have of each other on this site is a string of words on a screen. If when we read somebody's words here and feel a "connection", if the writer somehow seems "real", then 9/10 of that "reality", of what seems to be the other person, must be created in the brain or imagination of the person doing the reading. If I somehow begin to understand what mother is about and mother-son love, then it must be that I am creating 9/10 of that within myself right now. I must have received enough love from my mother in order to know that much at least. You are right, she was not a bad person. And, I know, this is where healing can begin.

To Gerry, who from my perspective is the 1/10 here that has awakened the 9/10 in myself--again, thank you. It is amazing what 1/10 can do when it is very real in itself.

IP: Logged

LeopoldMozart
Rookie

Posts: 6
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted March 06, 2003 03:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeopoldMozart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Erased by a recovering porn addict with 2 years abstinence.

[This message has been edited by LeopoldMozart (edited October 01, 2005).]

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 06, 2003 01:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LeopoldMozart:
Dear Daddy:
1. I completely agree with you about the frailty of memory. In my opinion, false memory syndrome definitely happens, and I believe that your ex' is a victim of it. A fun article about false memories is by Elizabeth Loftus (she's sort of an "Apostle Paul" of false memory syndrome) in the September 97 Scientific American. You might still be able to get that and other articles by her on her website. I myself suffered from false memories: when I was 16, I became a born-again Christian. (I still am, by the way. Of course, Christian hypocrisy and ignorance being what it is, my self-description as a born-again Christian has told you absolutely nothing about me intellectually, morally, or spiritually.) Six months after accepting Christ, I lost my virginity and was tortured with guilt about it for many months. About 4 years later I was chatting with my best friend about how I was going to lose my virginity on my wedding day, what it was going to be like to finally have sex, etc. etc., and she looked at me strange and reminded me that I had in fact already lost my virginity 4 years previous. I was shocked: I had actually forgotten that I had made love to a girl. My guilt, and my fear of being absolutely honest with myself, made me forget.
However, recovered memories of childhood abuse happen as well. The ďslam dunkĒ study on this is by Linda Meyer Williams: Recovered Memories of Abuse in Women With Documented Child Sexual Victimization (Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 1994 62:1167-1176) She found hospital records from about 17 years previous to her study of 129 girls who had been molested. The abuses absolutely happened: the girls had been treated at a hospital for that abuse, ďrape kitsĒ were taken, police reports made, etc. She found these (now) women and interviewed them about treatment at that hospital, asking questions meant to elicit feedback about their early experiences. It turned out that 38% of the women could not remember being molested, nor being hospitalized as a result, even though most of these women were seven years old or older at the time of the abuse. 16% of those who did remember the abuse described a period of time where the abuse was forgotten.
Since false memory syndrome *and* recovered memories occur so often, itís so hard to unravel a personís recollections about childhood traumas. So many good people get falsely accused, and so many perpetrators continue their secret lives with no consequences.
2. About me: Iím a math teacher and I read a lot. Iím supposedly really smart, except I must not be that smart, since what Iíve written so far has taken me over an hour. I donít know how you, B4rry, Gerard, etc. can be so prolific.
3. My connection with incest has to do with a relatively recent friend who is an ďoffenderĒ, and just a general interest in it that started with trying to understand how pedophilia can happen. Iíve gotten sucked into this website just from the frank and interesting discussions Iíve read. Oh, also, Iíve dated at least two women who Iím convinced were sexually involved with their fathers: one quite abusively, and the other lovingly.
Take care!
Leo



Leo, thanks for your articulate and informed reply.

I had not heard more than the description of false memory. The actual examples you give are really disconcerting. You're saying you, and those other adults, completely forgot relatively recent events of a highly personal and intense nature. Recent is what gets me. We all seem to forget most of our childhood memories and the recollections seem to be exceptions. It can't be that almost everybody's childhoods were mostly traumatic, we just forget naturally for some reason. But, recent memories--that really shocks me.

So, if my ex' really did "imagine" all that--what REALLY happened that could be MORE painful than the pain that her "false memories" created, for heaven's sake?? She is emotionally scarred probably for life as she is.

Can she have had incest desires (instead of fears and shame) that were so absolutely intolerable to her--like your guilt about losing your virginity before marriage--that she not only "forgot" them but turned that shame and guilt into self-punishment to the extent of "imagining" being ritually raped and forced to kill her own child?? Why not just blank out the memory and leave it at that? In an effort to ward off her intolerable desires, was it necessary that she not just repress them (forget events) but make them even more intolerable by making the objects of her desires (her mother, father, brother, uncle, doctor perhaps) into brutal rapists and murderers (falsify the memories to the extreme)??

It is really hard for me, who is relatively normal, to imagine somebody's mind doing this, while all around their self-imposed brainwashing they appear to be relatively normal in their behaviour.

Do you have the address of the website you mentioned?

Anything else you might have to say about this or anything else, actually, I would much appreciate.

Thank you for your kind words. Glad you are here, Leo.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 06, 2003 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Can she have had incest desires (instead of fears and shame) that were so absolutely intolerable to her--

This is confused, I realized. I meant she did not feel fear and shame, perhaps, consciously. That unconcsiously these emotions worked in such a way as to produce the horror show of the false memories, a form of self-punishment for her intolerable and also unconscious desires for incest. Making her desires, the urge to have incest, so horrible that she could never begin to contemplate the act. Something like that is what I am trying to say or suppose happened. Leo, do you know anything about this kind of thing?

IP: Logged

LeopoldMozart
Rookie

Posts: 6
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted March 07, 2003 04:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LeopoldMozart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Erased by a porn addict in recovery, abstinent for 2 years.

[This message has been edited by LeopoldMozart (edited October 01, 2005).]

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 07, 2003 04:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LeopoldMozart:
Dear Daddy:
1. First of all, the website for Elizabeth Loftus is http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/
I love the fact that she makes all of her articles available on her website, rather than forcing us to subscribe to American Psychologist or whatever to read her work.
2. I'm no psychologist, but from what I've read, most of what we think of as memory is linguistic memory. The reason children under the age of 3 don't remember very much into adulthood isn't because toddlerhood is weird or traumatic, but because toddlers don't have enough language yet (enough linguistic sophistication) to turn experiences into words. Rather than narrative recollections, with awareness of time and place, early memories are usually little snatches of visual images, a feeling of pain or helplessness, etc. That's why all people (especially young children with nascent linguistic ability) are vulnerable to having their memories polluted by the spoken input of others. The reason that, by repeating over and over, "Your Father raped you! Your Father raped you!" you can alter the memory of a child and make her honestly believe the rape occurred is that, to a large extent, all of her memories are verbal narratives. Also, words from others elicit corresponding physical sensations: someone repeats over and over that I was molested, and I can turn those words into corresponding visual and touch-sense recollections. Children (or anyone) who has had false memories placed in their minds honestly believe them as their own, since they aren't different in form from any other memory.
Also, this explains (partly) why recovered memories can occur. When a girl was raped over a period of 3 years by her father, then remembers it 20 years later, I believe that what happened wasn't that she forgot the abuse (like an amnesiac) and then remembered it. I think that, for the first time, she was able to label what happened to her not as "that weird stuff that Dad would do," but as "child abuse" or "molestation." But according to people who have recovered memories, there is a large amnesiac component to it as well.
3. From what I've read about incest and molestation, I feel very strongly that your ex's false memories are not coming from projecting her own incestual desires onto her family members. I think it comes from a very human need to find out why she's in so much psychological pain, and (I'd guess) why her relationships are so painful and pathological. I don't know how many mentally ill people you've known, but I've known many, and one very common reaction I see is that when they are finally diagnosed (e.g. "You're not crazy! You just have a chemical imbalance that can be set to rights with lithium, or paxil, or etc.") it's a great relief for them. A confusing nightmare becomes nothing more than a treatable disease, like diabetes or lupus. Whether the ritual abuse happened or not (and from reading your posts about her, I'm convinced they did not happen), they have such great power to explain the pain and confusion in her life that she honestly believes it happened.
The next question is: why does she use the memory of ritual abuse to explain her pain? I don't know: we'll have to wake up Karl Jung from the dead and ask him. And while he's up, we'll also have to ask him why so many people honestly believe they were kidnapped by aliens, why so many paranoiacs believe it is the FBI and CIA that are following them, and why Scandinavians, after a terrible and frustrating failure at work, quietly go home and kill themselves, while Americans go home, get guns, and murder their co-workers.

This is fun talking with you about all this. I hope everyone else isn't totally bored. At some time, I do want to post what age I think is "too young."

Take care,
Leo


Leo, I want to spend some time reading and digesting this response of yours. Can you tell me what, then, the critics say about the falseness of false memory? What a psychologist told me is that, increasingly, clients become upset with what they take to be the systematic invalidation of their recollections and their mental competency. In other words, they don't like (big time) being told that their experience is "unreal" and essentially delusional. Not to mention, they feel abandoned by the very person they rely upon to help them out of their pain and all he/she is doing is making them feel worse by telling them that what they think is the reason for their pain is unreal. This would have to be the most disorienting experience; I can imagine it would trigger huge rage in the most aggressive clients, suicidal despair in others, and just psychosis in true believers who really believe their caregivers know the Truth.

In fact, the critics might argue, these therapists are using words on their vulnerable clients to do just exactly what they say others did to them: shape their experiences by a form of verbal brainwashing, only this time by the psychologist.

The gist is that some psychologists are tending to believe that these clients are right, that this is NOT false memory, and that therapists who believe it is are harming their clients even more.

What does not ring true about your explanation is this: I know much of my so-called memory is not linguistically based. I have body-memories. I can think back to being held in my mother's arms. There are no thoughts, only pictures. Then there are sensations and emotions that have no words to them. They just arise out of my body. At other times, if I press on certain sore places in my musculature, pain from the past will surface and occasionally memories, snatches of imagery and never any words at all. I have also self-regressed myself to a preverbal state through working with my body. I have also witnessed adults going through old memories that are without any words to them, just body sensation, emotion, and flashes of pictures, in the same manner as I experience. On reflection, the people and I say these were past events. Conclusion: I do not believe that all memory is created by language, any more than we can choose what we feel by choosing the thoughts or beliefs we hold (another popular idea from the folks who make cognitive and behavourial psychology).

That having been said, I have many experiences where I had nonverbal experiences and then had an "Aha!" where I suddenly framed the experience with some context or concept (which involves labelling it) and thereafter could fit the experience into my comprehension. Words and cognitive elements gave the non-verbal feelings some context and meaning. The words here certainly changed the experience inasmuch as they added meaning. As I said, the mind does not tolerate ambiguity very long.

But, as you ask too, what on earth could be more painful than ritual rape and murder fantasies that could make somebody "prefer" them to what they were explaining or covering up??

And, yes, what age is too young? And, most of all, why?

IP: Logged

notmyfault
Member

Posts: 245
From: Cali-fornicating
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 08, 2003 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for notmyfault     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
sorry to interrupt other things to reply to past things.

more specifically, I was talking about her during sex going back to things familiar, needing you to play a role to heighten the power of the sex, you feeling weird, but giving in to the increased pleasure it could initially provide during the moments. her steering you towards things. didn't sound like that in your description. my first partner told me that the sensitive poet stuff didn't really do it for her, and she needed me to act out in a more testerone driven and controlling way. I did so, but often felt like I was in a bad porno movie, but it was hard to argue with her results.

I'm being more carnal, but than that's me all over! Carnal corn.

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 09, 2003 12:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by notmyfault:
my first partner told me that the sensitive poet stuff didn't really do it for her, and she needed me to act out in a more testerone driven and controlling way. I did so, but often felt like I was in a bad porno movie, but it was hard to argue with her results.

Notmyfault, you just said your answer: "sensitive poet stuff didn't...do it for her", "testosterone driven," "felt like I was in a bad porno movie...", "hard to argue with her results."

Your focus is on what SHE wants and it is clear YOU do not want this. In relationships that are truly working, both partners want the same thing. They do not "please each other" (at the expense of one of the partners); they are spontaneously pleased by each other and are naturally pleasing to each other. There is NO ISSUE. You feel like you are in a "bad" porno movie. Not even a "good" one. You are saying you are not really that satisfied, but she is. This is not a good porn movie, you are right. One would hope a relationship was a great deal better than any porn movie.

IP: Logged

notmyfault
Member

Posts: 245
From: Cali-fornicating
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 09, 2003 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for notmyfault     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
uhhh Dude, I wasn't asked to have MY relationship analized, or the hallmarks of a good relationship, I was asking about the dynamics in yours.

I'll take the no-answer, and ask no further.

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 09, 2003 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by notmyfault:
... MY relationship analized, ....

IP: Logged

Daddy
Member

Posts: 2279
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Registered: Dec 2002

posted March 09, 2003 03:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by notmyfault:
[B]uhhh Dude, I wasn't asked to have MY relationship analized, or the hallmarks of a good relationship, I was asking about the dynamics in yours.

For the life of me, I do not see anywhere in your post any question mark or any question. I do not see you asking anything about me or "the dynamics" in my relationship.

If you have a question, please just ask it! Don't assume that when I do not answer a question you have not actually asked that this means I do not want to!

IP: Logged

b4rry
Moderator

Posts: 7857
From: The Pee Dee area of S.C.
Registered: Jan 2002

posted March 09, 2003 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To change the subject BACK to How young is "too young"? -- which has always seemed to me to imply cross-generational incest -- I'd like to point out there's actually at least basic circumstances we all have been talking about:
  • Love,
  • Lust and
  • Learning.

In the early days of this thread I think people mostly talked about lust and learning, if I recall correctly. (No, I haven't reread all of this monster thread anytime recenty.) More recently this thread has dwelt with love vs. lust. What happened to those trying to tell us about Learning?

I don't want to sound overly simplistic, but I think to many children around the age of puberty their first sex is exploration, while to most adults its not; they're way past sex being new. Hence, I suspect that when an adult initiates sexual contact with a child, its almost always out of lust (often circumstantial at first, but not always). This simply isn't always the first thing on the mind of a child around puberty time. Now, if the parent-child relationship is good and the circumstances allow it, the parent may stear the newly intimate relationship into being more like a husband and wife. As we've heard, this can turn out quite decent for both, although it always leaves one wondering about the road not allowed to be followed. How young is too young for a child to be taken down the road to being the parent's spouse? Certainly, wouldn't a parent trying to make that happen with a very young child be fooling themself? After all, that'd be asking the child to join the parent in an endeavor before the child had attained the physical, emotional, etc. maturity necessary to carry out their part in that endeavor. The results could be serious bad for such a child, perhaps almost as if the parent simply were taking lustful advantage of the child.

But what about those cases -- which we used to hear about from time to time -- where the parent viewed the intimacies as a phase in the child's life, whether the intimacies were instigated by the curious child or the parent in a moment of need? The dynamic here is vastly different since the parent remains very much a parent (if I summarize correctly), even though adult-like intimacies have occurred. The adult remains committed to raising an independent adult that functions more normatively apart from the parent, and allows/encourages the child's growth in that direction. The answer to "how young is too young" in cases of Learning, then, would be different (perhaps slightly younger) from cases of Lust or Love.

Admittedly, this last paragraph is somewhat sepculative since I have no direct experience in this Learning category (unless the simple play a female cousin had with me when I was quite young counts) and since those that used to post along these lines haven't been around in awhile, but I think I'm pointing out something worth discussion. How about it?

IP: Logged


This topic is 8 pages long:   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 

All times are ET (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | IncestBoard.com | Privacy Statement

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47d


Incest pics, videos and casesIncest Pic of the DayThe Incest LinksThe Incest Chatrooms