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Author Topic:   How young is "too young"?
Hans
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posted August 10, 2002 06:58 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Age isn't even the real question here. The real question is whether or not incest b***een people with a significant difference of age is acceptable. This usually ammounts to a question of whether sex b***een parents and their children is acceptable.

Sex is something that should be shared b***een equals and is not appropriate where a difference of power exists, especially the vast difference that exists in a parent/child relationship. Then of course there is the issue of pedophilia, which if you follow the actual definition basically ammounts to sexual attraction to individuals who are under 13 when you yourself are at least five years older. Pedophilia has nothing to do with the legal age of consent and it has nothing to do with whether someone is an adult in the legal sense. It has everything to do with sexual development, both physical and emotional. Someone who is under 13 is not sexually mature, whereas most who are over 13 are. That doesn't mean it is appropriate to have sex with them, it only means that being sexually attracted to them isn't a sign that there is something wrong with you. Our libido's are derived from evolution, not from our society's perpetually changing notions of right and wrong. Girls of ages who would very much be jailbait today have been and mothers at that same age through most of human history. The fact that teenaged sex is a perpetual "epidemic" in each generation is proof positive that sex is something that is natural and normal for people of this age group.

Even so, while someone may be capable of having an adult sexual relationship at the age of 15, that doesn't necessarily mean they should. It doesn't mean they shouldn't, it only means that there are other issues to be considered.

One of those issues is power. Like I said before, sex is something to be shared b***een equals. The relationship of a parent and their child is not that of equals so long as that child is dependent upon the parent. This is ***e regardless of the age of the child. There are plenty of 20-somethings living with mommy and daddy in an extended adolescence.

I see nothing wrong with a parent who pursues a mutually consensual sexual relationship with a child who is ***ly grown and independent. I do have a problem with a parent who either pursues or allows a sexual relationship when their child is still dependent upon them. The problem of power is not one that can simply be ***shed aside. A healthy sexual relationship is only possible b***een equals or near equals.

The other issue that I feel I must address here is the question of sex with children in general. Consensual sex or sex play b***een people of similar age is not a problem and it certainly isn't wrong. Sex or sex play b***een individuals of vastly different ages, especially when there is a difference in sexual development, is a problem. Pedophilia is a mental illness. For someone who is sexually mature to desire someone who is not is a sign that there is something very wrong with their sexual psychology. Some pedophiles make the argument of consent and ask "but what if the child wants to?" It doesn't make any difference if the child wants to because YOU SHOULDN'T WANT TO. Psychologically healthy individuals choose sexual partners from their peer group. They do not choose individuals who are not on the same level they are. This goes back to the question of power again. Why would someone WANT to have a sexual relationship with a child? I think one of the main reasons, beyond just bad wiring in the head, is that the child can be easily controlled and is essentially a sex object. Someone who can only have sex with someone they can objectify and control is basically sick in the head anyway regardless of whether they go after kids or simply vulnerable and weak members of their own age group.

I think everyone here gets what I'm trying to say. Those who would feign misunderstanding as a debate tool can kiss my irish ass.

To sum it up, sex with a child is wrong unless you yourself are a child. Sex with someone you have power over is a bad idea at best. Sex with a child you have power over is doubly bad. If you want to fuck someone, wait till they they are your peer to pursue them. To do anything else is to open the door to abuse.

Hans

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Hans
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posted August 10, 2002 07:01 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hans:
Age isn't even the real question here. The real question is whether or not incest b***een people with a significant difference of age is acceptable. This usually ammounts to a question of whether sex b***een parents and their children is acceptable.

Sex is something that should be shared b***een equals and is not appropriate where a difference of power exists, especially the vast difference that exists in a parent/child relationship. Then of course there is the issue of pedophilia, which if you follow the actual definition basically ammounts to sexual attraction to individuals who are under 13 when you yourself are at least five years older. Pedophilia has nothing to do with the legal age of consent and it has nothing to do with whether someone is an adult in the legal sense. It has everything to do with sexual development, both physical and emotional. Someone who is under 13 is not sexually mature, whereas most who are over 13 are. That doesn't mean it is appropriate to have sex with them, it only means that being sexually attracted to them isn't a sign that there is something wrong with you. Our libido's are derived from evolution, not from our society's perpetually changing notions of right and wrong. Girls of ages who would very much be jailbait today have been wives and mothers at that same age through most of human history. The fact that teenaged sex is a perpetual "epidemic" in each generation is proof positive that sex is something that is natural and normal for people of this age group.

Even so, while someone may be capable of having an adult sexual relationship at the age of 15, that doesn't necessarily mean they should. It doesn't mean they shouldn't, it only means that there are other issues to be considered.

One of those issues is power. Like I said before, sex is something to be shared b***een equals. The relationship of a parent and their child is not that of equals so long as that child is dependent upon the parent. This is ***e regardless of the age of the child. There are plenty of 20-somethings living with mommy and daddy in an extended adolescence.

I see nothing wrong with a parent who pursues a mutually consensual sexual relationship with a child who is ***ly grown and independent. I do have a problem with a parent who either pursues or allows a sexual relationship when their child is still dependent upon them. The problem of power is not one that can simply be ***shed aside. A healthy sexual relationship is only possible b***een equals or near equals.

The other issue that I feel I must address here is the question of sex with children in general. Consensual sex or sex play b***een people of similar age is not a problem and it certainly isn't wrong. Sex or sex play b***een individuals of vastly different ages, especially when there is a difference in sexual development, is a problem. Pedophilia is a mental illness. For someone who is sexually mature to desire someone who is not is a sign that there is something very wrong with their sexual psychology. Some pedophiles make the argument of consent and ask "but what if the child wants to?" It doesn't make any difference if the child wants to because YOU SHOULDN'T WANT TO. Psychologically healthy individuals choose sexual partners from their peer group. They do not choose individuals who are not on the same level they are. This goes back to the question of power again. Why would someone WANT to have a sexual relationship with a child? I think one of the main reasons, beyond just bad wiring in the head, is that the child can be easily controlled and is essentially a sex object. Someone who can only have sex with someone they can objectify and control is basically sick in the head anyway regardless of whether they go after kids or simply vulnerable and weak members of their own age group.

I think everyone here gets what I'm trying to say. Those who would feign misunderstanding as a debate tool can kiss my irish ass.

To sum it up, sex with a child is wrong unless you yourself are a child. Sex with someone you have power over is a bad idea at best. Sex with a child you have power over is doubly bad. If you want to fuck someone, wait till they they are your peer to pursue them. To do anything else is to open the door to abuse.

Hans


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tigerman31
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posted August 10, 2002 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigerman31     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I did not even mention sex in my last post. We have been nude is what i said. And what if anything is wrong with that? I dont't see anything and i am sure it happens alot in house holds aroud the states and countries. She is making her own decisions and isn't that what alot of you have been saying? Not to force isssues with children and what they don't want to do? She is free to do what she wants if she feels ok with it.There are times she goes nude and i am not or i am and she is not.

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tigerman31
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posted August 10, 2002 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigerman31     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i jsut wnat everyone to know i wnat a special bond with my daughter seeing she only sees me everyother weekend. And i think she may feel that bond as well coming out. Seeing i beleive she can;t go nude at home and is not to look at her step dad when he is nude. I jsut feeel there is a special bond i want with herand her being able to do what she feels she is ok with here like going nude and whatever may happen there after. Can we have that specail bond b***een us and go further?

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scooby28655
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posted August 11, 2002 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for scooby28655     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
tigerman31, I think you are doing the right thing.
Like I have posted before, my 2 daughter and step-daughter started the relationship we have and I or my wife wouldn't change a thing. It never even entered my mind about have sex with my own children, but would never change what has happened.
scooby28655

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scooby28655
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posted August 11, 2002 10:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for scooby28655     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is to "Hans" I'm sorry, but i have read so many of your downgrading messages. If you don't like it here why do u keep reading these post. It's an Incest Board. Get a clue.

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b4rry
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posted August 11, 2002 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scooby28655:
This is to "Hans" I'm sorry, but i have read so many of your downgrading messages. If you don't like it here why do u keep reading these post. It's an Incest Board. Get a clue.

Scooby, we do have several camps of opinion here:

  • Those that are against all incest
  • Those that are against all incest with pre-puberty children
  • Those against sex where there's big age differences -- adult and child
  • Those against sex where there's ANY big age differences
  • Those that think sensation teaching for kids shouldn't be confused with sex with children
  • etc.

I think anyone holding any of these views should be welcome to join the discussion here as long as they respect everyone else's right to their opinion(s) and as long as they're civil about it. After all, isn't this board about sharing a variety of experiences and different views?

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Hans
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posted August 11, 2002 05:41 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
scooby28655:

Why don't YOU get a clue?

The main page for this site states the following:

"PEDOPHILES AND MINORS ARE *NOT* WELCOME AND WILL BE REPORTED!"

The fact that you don't seem to like my posts implies that you yourself are probably a pedophile. If you're not please do us all the favor of explaining exactly what it is that you've got your panties in a bind over.

If you are a pedophile, please get help, both for the sake of the children in your life and for your own sake as well. If you choose not to get help don't be too suprised if someone arrives one day to put a bullet in your brain.

Hans

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b4rry
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posted August 11, 2002 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gentlemen, let's try being civil here. we have disagreements, but I bet none of us is perfect.

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tigerman31
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posted August 11, 2002 08:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigerman31     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree, there are many of us who have different views and are aginst certain things. THe post is for all and who want to post their views and or experiences. Let us all get along if not whats next? We all go to jail?

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tigerman31
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posted August 11, 2002 08:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigerman31     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is what it says on the home page before entering here.....This site has been designed to provide free speech to people interested in incest, no censorship here, we are based in the Netherlands, the sexual freedom paradise of the world, so you can be really free here inside!

You will also find many free things inside, incest stuff like incest pics, incest videos and illustrated incest cases provided by the best and proven incest sites on the net, they share part of its archives with us so you can enjoy them for free!

Also we have links and reviews of all the incest sites on the net, and the Pic of the Day, A real life incest picture released daily, Online Incest chat, all this free!

PEDOPHILES AND MINORS ARE *NOT* WELCOME AND WILL BE REPORTED!

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b4rry
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posted August 17, 2002 12:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bumping this thread to the top to remind folks that this was the thread that most significantly changed the tenor of this f o r u m -- and still hold the record for thread length.

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Ecstatic
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posted August 20, 2002 07:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ecstatic     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do not think that sex b***een adults & children is a good idea. I can see the points some of have made about differing speeds of emotional development however....

I knew a trainee Rabbi once. Whenever I am speaking with a person of faith then the conversation generally touches on what they believe & why.

Orthodox Jews have to obey a lot of restrictions on their behaviour. Some of these restrictions are beyond those outlined in the Torah. These are customs developed to prevent the observant Jew from actually getting near to breaking a biblical prohibition.

Perhaps it would be as well to regard the laws on adult-child sex in this light. They prevent people from getting too close to situations where real damage could be done.

Of course the same case could be made for the laws about incest, but that would be a totally lost cause here now wouldn't it.

For the record I have no personal experience of incest. I find reading accounts of it arousing (esp. f/f stuff), but am bemused as to why as I am an only child & my parents never showed any sexual interest in me, nor I to them.

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BluesTraveler
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posted August 20, 2002 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BluesTraveler     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To All Repliers,
Great thoughts and even greater inputs. I must say, after sitting back and p***sing the responses, I am impressed. Free thinking and free speaking...Damn!!

On the sincerely responsive note, here's where I firmly stand.
First, the so called "age of consent" is whatever both individuals collectively agree upon, without guilt, or remorse, and both bask in the glow of the previous experience. Without that, it has probably become numb, seductive, and abusive.

Second,
Incest b***een consenting partners is the Most intimate, Most sensual, sexual experience that there can be...after all, it is the closest of close relations.

Third,
I firmly profess indulgence, pleasures of the flesh and experience provided no harm results. In other words,
Live free, feel free, taste free.
If you want to write me off line from the f***m to express your views, or inquire as to mine,
I am,

switch_625@hotmail.com

All interested are welcome.
Regardless of your views, I solemnly promise to never degrade you.
Peace,
BT

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Daddy
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posted August 24, 2002 01:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BluesTraveler:
[B]BT, thank you, on behalf of the post-ers here, for your appreciation of our posts.

Like you, I am impressed at the often thoughtfulness of this site in particular. We may just have the most in-depth place for incest discussion on the Web. Not one of the places I would want to have reviewed and an award given, though!

The only thing I want to disagree with on your response (above) is this:

The concept of "mutual consent" sounds good but may not actually be what it sounds like in practice. Read some of my posts. I stress "informed consent". Meaning both partners understand the consequences or probable outcomes and still choose to go ahead.

In cross-generational (adult-child) incest, there is no possibility of informed consent with a child or young person who simply has not developed intellectually and emotionally enough--nor had the life experience, quite clearly--to even imagine consequences, much less remember some, in order to guide their decision. Only the adult partner has this possibility and can choose to be responsible or not.

And, as we all know, lust tends to cloud judgement. You can understand, therefore, why informed consent, even on the adult side, but much more on the child side, does not exist. At least, it cannot be assumed to exist just because the little hand reaches unbidden for the daddy's cock, or little lips close over mommy's tit.

Now, the adult may perceive or interpret the child's willing cooperation or participation as "consent" or even "informed consent". But--depending on the age or development of the child--the younger partner is entering the incest with various motives. To please daddy or mommy is the big one I have found, even in adults who were incested as children and now please their partners in almost a self-denying way.

Another motive is fear, fear of the giant parent who has literal power over their life and well being. I have even had adults of incest background say, "My father would kill me (or throw me out of the house) if he knew I were cybering with you". They were serious. And they are adults! Imagine how overpowered they must have been when they were tiny, lying under giant sexual daddy or mommy, being penetrated and fearing consequences such as these if they resisted.

And, really young ones are into the pleasure of sensation and do not think past the present moment. A little hand reaching for the aroused adult's sex can, with the***sh of adult lust,SEEM like consent when it may only be momentary curiosity about touch and pleasure.

The real point here is that the***o partners in cross-generational incest are so far apart in psychological development that there is no possibility of either ***e informed consent or even intimacy b***een equals.

Another thing I have noticed from talking to people here is that, as they grow up, what seemed like a consensual and pleasurable incest when they were children may--I say MAY--be reviewed differently from their adult perspective. They may look back and re-interpret their experience, such as they recall it, and conclude that, although they recall enjoying the experience back then, that their parent was actually "using" them for their own pleasure, and that they (the child at the time) was too afraid to resist and the fear was suppressed but they did get to enjoy at least the bodily sensations. This causes real emotional problems later in life. I am not saying it always turns out this way. I am making the point that "consent" may be reviewed later and revised.

We are dealing with people here, who are complex, changing, and who do not know themselves (who really does?). It is impossible to know what effect something like incest is going to have. Likely it will be more life-changing for the young one than the parent.

It bothers me that I do NOT read more concern for the child in these postings. So many say, "We love each other" or "it feels so fantastic" and therefore do not question. They often do not answer whether they are putting the child's need ahead of their own. How many parents would stop incesting after beginning if the child asked--or even if the child did not ask, just because the parent thought differently about the consequences at some point?

I think the question of love and commitment should be raised here. Who knows the difference b***een lust and love even as an adult? What is the commitment the incesting parent has to the child?

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b4rry
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posted August 24, 2002 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Daddy,

I've heard your argument, and what you say makes a lot of sense -- as far as it goes. I'm wondering, though:

  • What do you say about the sexuality of the mentally or emotionally retarded?
  • Why must the notion of sexual pleasure be linked to anything (love, violence, whatever)?
  • Why must having pleasure now rest on an informed guess of tomorrow?

Do you really think think sexual expressions involving these categories shouldn't happen, or do you need to modify your views a bit here or there. (Don't take me wrong; you know pretty much where I stand.)

Over use of the concept of consent seems to lead to difficulties. In the case of age of consent the obvious difficulty is what do you do about those that pass the predetermined age and haven't attained what agreed one "should" attain by that age? When one switches for age to informed consent one switches the difficulties to the meaning of informed, but still have difficulties with those who ordinarily would thought to qualify due to all other criteria but aren't able to meet that of "informed."

Any time you draw a line you risk putting on the wrong side someone who doesn't belong there.

Next: Where is it writen that sex must go hand in hand with some sort of pre-existing emotional bond or happen due to some momentary emotion? Yes, most people always wish for such -- and in a possitive and mutual fashion -- but I'm not certain these are biological prerequisites. (Incidentally, the species may fall apart from too much hate and violence, but probably not from a lack of ***e love.) Hormonal activation and functional bodies, if I recall correctly, are just about all that's ***ely required.

Consequences: The argument here is much as that regarding the concept of consent, except the numbers falling to the "wrong" side are probably much bigger. The fact is that many, many couples copulate without much more than a dreamy notion of the consequences of their moment together. I'm not just talking about youth, but am even occasionally including myself or anyone else who's had sex with someone on a gut feeling about their worth or what being with them for the long haul would be like only to discover my gut feeling was considerably off the mark. In fact, it seems our hormaones act to cloud our judgement of the future since that might get in the way of the procreation necessary to keep our species alive.

If we as a society aren't going to draw a line unfairly against some, I really think we must base our judgements on when each person's biology has determined they are ready. Then as a society we probably should do more to support those who will s***ggle with everything else that biology hasn't prepared that individual for.

Daddy, I've given you food for thought; I'd love to hear wht thoughts come back.

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Daddy
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posted August 26, 2002 10:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by b4rry:
Daddy,

I've heard your argument, and what you say makes a lot of sense -- as far as it goes. I'm wondering, though:[list]

  • What do you say about the sexuality of the mentally or emotionally retarded?
  • +++++ANSWER: I had a friend who was developmentally retarded. She was estimated to be age 5 or so when her body was age 30 or so. She, however, had sexual feelings it would seem. She was also intelligent in ways that the authorities missed. She knew, for example, that she was handicapped. Imagine living with that knowledge. And she had the most positive outlook--a real inspiration to me. At any rate, she wanted to have sex with me. She more or less let me know that. I did not. Besides not being attracted myself, I saw the consequences to her, to me, if I did. Also, it was clear her development was not secure enough to count on her knowing the consequences in any sense. I am saying that she was much like a child although her "biology was ready" as you put it. The problem, B, is that we are NOT merely biological. The whole person goes into the relationship. We have learned to compartmentalize sex from love. I remember when it happened in my life as a teenager. I did not start out partitioning myself. I remember feeling sad when I discovered I had lost this connection.

    +++++++ Why must the notion of sexual pleasure be linked to anything (love, violence, whatever)?+++++ANSWER: Sexual pleasure IS linked with caring and often love in mature humans beings.When we are immature or adult but fragmented, that is when sex gets separated from affection or other emotions. That is my answer. It is ***e that nature gave us hormones and seems to care only that we procreate. But people who separate sex from feeling are not interested in procreation most of the time--far from it. They are interested in pleasure. Nature made procreation pleasurable to add incentive, probably. We put a plastic bag b***een pleasure and procreation so that we can have one without the other--which nature never intended. And, in our minds, we put a "plastic bag" b***een sexual pleasure and all those troublesome emotions that might make us feel commitment to our partner. Nature did not intend that either. Actually, it appears nature wants us to commit in order to raise a family. It is no use, from nature's viewpoint, to have offspring and then not settle down to raise them in safety. No doubt this view is going to be drastically unpopular. It would have been to me about ten years ago. +++++++++Why do we have to have consent involving an informed guess of tomorrow? ANSWER: We do not. Lots we do is not "necessary". We need to think about the future for the sake of our well being and not just our survival. Thinking of our offspring's well-being and providing for it and the offspring's survival is necessary only for the offspring. If we value our children, we provide for this--obvioulsy. If we love them, we do not think***ice. In the matter of incest, the question of informed consent (which involves thinking of the future consequences) OBVIOUSLY can involve serious negative consequences for the incestor, if for no other reasons than possible jail and a generally miserable social life. For the child who is incested, the emotional consequences, if any, are not easily calculated. Since the child (in the example I have been using all along) cannot make these assessments, it is up to the parent (as I keep saying). The parent does not "have" to. It is just better that he/she did for the well-being and survival of the child and to keep himself out of social reprecussions. This is clear.++++++++

    Do you really think think sexual expressions involving these categories shouldn't happen, or do you need to modify your views a bit here or there. (Don't take me wrong; you know pretty much where I stand.) +++ANSWER: I do not think cross-generational incest should happen when there is no informed consent. I have drawn my line, with all the potential for numbers falling on either side. I am not fence-sitting. I have been talking to people in chatrooms about incest for about three years, here for about nine months I guess. I made some close contacts where I think the people I talked with were honest with me. In THEIR view in certain cases, and in mine in more cases, it seems that there have indeed been emotional and behavioural reprecussions even to declared pleasurable cross-generational incest. These reprecussions include: tendency to submit to male authority as an adult, difficulty forming intimate relationships with people in the same age range, repressed emotion and over-controlling of emotion, compulsions, extreme loneliness, depression, and abandonment anxiety, sex/fantasy addiction, attraction to children sexually (yes, there are female pedophiliacs, on their own admission). And more. I have not summarized my observations yet.

    Over use of the concept of consent seems to lead to difficulties. In the case of age of consent the obvious difficulty is what do you do about those that pass the predetermined age and haven't attained what agreed one "should" attain by that age? ++++++ANSWER: Of course, traffic cops know all about this! Legal age of majority is just a guess, a ballpark figure. But having no guideline would be chaos, would it not? +++++++

    When one switches for age to informed consent one switches the difficulties to the meaning of informed, but still have difficulties with those who ordinarily would thought to qualify due to all other criteria but aren't able to meet that of "informed." +++ANSWER: Again, what does "informed" mean? Has the information been proven valid, has it been conveyed accurately, has it been understood, can it be understood given the recipient's age, was their bias in presenting it. Sure, there is all that. And, so the person IS adequately informed but is precocious and is only 10; what then? In the end, there are no fixed answers. There are reliable sign posts and values: First,is the child's best interest (as judged by the child as far as possible) best served by whatever the action is? Second, am I (the incestor) ready at any time to stop and never approach my child sexually if I see even the slightest sign of emotional or physical harm? In other words, do I put the child's best interest ahead of my own? Third, do I know what love is and can I tell the difference b***een love and lust? Can I tell the difference b***een sensation and emotion? Just because it feels good does not mean it is love. Fourth, do I have some other way of expressing my need for closeness than having incest? This is an important one. Fifth, whose needs am I answring here, mine or my child's?

    +++++++putting on the wrong side someone who doesn't belong there.++++ ANSWER: Sure, this happens. But it is better than making no judgement at all. It is better to err on the side of caution at all times. A child's life and well-being are at stake. Pleasure and the parent's emotional needs are a secondary matter.

    It all goes back to what nature intended: The parent is here for the child, not the child is here for the parent. Very important.+++++

    Next: Where is it writen that sex [b]must go hand in hand with some sort of pre-existing emotional bond or happen due to some momentary emotion? Yes, most people always wish for such -- and in a possitive and mutual fashion -- but I'm not certain these are biological prerequisites.++++ANSWER: Answered above.++++

    (Incidentally, the species may fall apart from too much hate and violence, but probably not from a lack of ***e love.)

    ++++++ANSWER: I deny this. The species may, indeed, destroy itself out of ignorance, hate and violence. Pick your disaster. But why on earth do you say lack of love is not a fundamental cause of our species falling apart?! We certainly have a lack of love. We would not be hateful and violent if we loved on a regular basis! This is clear.

    You know that children who are raised without sufficient unconditional love grow up emotionally distorted, including violent. At least, many do. Some others grow up unusually caring and compassionate, trying to give others what they themselves needed and still may lack. They are the world's healers. ++++++++++

    Hormonal activation and functional bodies, if I recall correctly, are just about all that's ***ely required.+++++++ANSWER: Required for what? For procreation but not child rearing nor civilization. And certainly not for happiness. Not to mention world peace.

    +++++++++++Consequences: The argument here is much as that regarding the concept of consent, except the numbers falling to the "wrong" side are probably much bigger. The fact is that many, many couples copulate without much more than a dreamy notion of the consequences of their moment together. I'm not just talking about youth, but am even occasionally including myself or anyone else who's had sex with someone on a gut feeling about their worth or what being with them for the long haul would be like only to discover my gut feeling was considerably off the mark. In fact, it seems our hormaones act to cloud our judgement of the future since that might get in the way of the procreation necessary to keep our species alive.+++++ANSWER: Not just in the way of the procreation (I think they are aimed at procreation, not getting in the way)necessary to keep us alive...but in the way of reason, as you suggest. On this one we agree.

    Actually, the part of the brain that is concerned with rational thought is different from the part of the brain concerned with sex and procreation. Reason really is clouded by hormonal activity of the kind you are thinking about. All the more reason to strive for BALANCE. The principles or values I listed above are a contribution toward attaining balance. Lust, by definition, is unbalanced. Lust that is confused for love, or need that is thought to be love--all contribute to imbalance.++++++++++++++

    If we as a society aren't going to draw a line unfairly against some, I really think we must base our judgements on when each person's biology has determined they are ready. Then as a society we probably should do more to support those who will s***ggle with everything else that biology hasn't prepared that individual for.++++++++++ANSWER: Not sure what got *bleeped* out there. As indicated earlier, biology is not enough of a guide. Surely it is a reliable guide in one way, however: having intercourse with an infant or pre-teen even, is unnatural and potentially harmful to the recipient because, clearly (is it really clear to everybody???), that little pelvis is not ready to accept a large member, and by no means can the immature pelvis contain a child, not to mention the adult mix of hormones is missing. Clearly, biological readiness really means something when it comes to this. However,being biologically mature does not mean the whole person is mature or ready.

    We have a situation now, as a matter of fact, where there are synthetic estrogens (female hormone imitators) in our water, air, and food. These xenoestrogens, as they are called, are being considered responsible for the unheard of phenomenon of five-year-olds developing breasts and having periods! Yes, this is happening. So, biological readiness is NOT a reliable guide in the messed up modern world.+++++


    Daddy, I've given you food for thought; I'd love to hear wht thoughts come back.[/B]++++As always, B. I wish I had more time to write a fuller response.

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  • b4rry
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    posted August 26, 2002 10:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Daddy, please don't put your comments/responses in the middle of that which you quote. It makes it appear as if the quoted perosn said it instead of you. (parallels exist)

    Plus, you keep destroying the UBB codes.

    I'll read your post tomorrow night.

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    b4rry
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    posted August 27, 2002 06:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Daddy, I just read it through. You butchered what I'd said pretty thoroughly, certainly enough that its very hard to see my points.
    Listen, what I was responding to was a sense that sometimes you sound like you're trying to write***les for all of society. Essentially, I was trying to point out some civil liberty consequences of carrying an edict-style view too far. ...and to point out some logical minimums.

    Now I see you're talking about an ideal, not an edict. Thank you.

    Finally, PLEASE STOP RESPONDING WITHIN PEOPLE'S TEXT. Its an extremely major offense in my view.

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    Daddy
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    posted August 28, 2002 02:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by b4rry:
    [Now I see you're talking about an ideal, not an edict. Thank you.

    Finally, PLEASE STOP RESPONDING WITHIN PEOPLE'S TEXT. Its an extremely major offense in my view.[/B]


    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
    B, as you must know when you stop to recall, we have been corresponding as it were for months. We have also both responded separately to others. In all that time, I have never seen you so obviously ANGRY as when I "butchered" your text by writing "in" it so to speak.

    I ask, why would THIS, of all events, bring up so much distress and anger? You do not have to be personal and write it here. I just raise the question. We have seen a self-proclaimed actual rapist, a suicide, manipulators of people wanting advice, a frank amateur hypnotist wanting to teach seduction, painfully distressed people, red-necks and intolerance, censorship,...all presumably real. Yet, when in good faith, I write "in" your text--you burst. What crime have I caused?

    So readers may understand: B4rry has written a very long post. I cannot remember every point. All of his points deserved a reasoned reply. When I am responding in the text bod, I have to scroll down and re-read his points, scroll up, remembering one or***o, write a reply...then repeat the whole thing numerous times. This is tedious and may not result in as thorough a reply. I elected to use +++ to separate his words from mine, and to use the obvious "ANSWER:" to further denote that words following were mine and not his. I do not see how this can be confusing to readers as he suggests. On the other hand, to scroll through his post, remember what he said, then read my long post answering his every point--WITHOUT WRITING WITH HIS TEXT NEXT TO MINE AS I HAVE DONE--would force the reader to scroll up and down with every point, reading his and then my answer. I thought my approach was both clearer and also more convenient to the readers. If I have been mistaken, I apologize.

    I apologize to you, B4rry, for inadvertently causing you distress. Sorry to take up readers' time with this "getting things straight" interchange. However, perhaps, if we all sought to communicate like this we would not have had the recent ugly events taking place here.
    +++++++++++++++++++

    Second point, B4rry, I do not think of myself as talking about either an "edict" or an "ideal". If I gave that impression, let me reframe:

    I came into this site to explore people's experiences of incest and to experience my own responses to what they told me. I was moved to do so, as I have explained elsewhere, by having been with a woman who was ***tally incested and scarred emotionally for life. When we separated, I wanted to explore this subject more as best I could.

    Over the course of my time here, I have gained experience--others' mostly. I have responded directly in the chat room but more generally here in the F***m. What I do is take what people tell me is their experience, look for common themes. I try to not judge. But I do not avoid trying to understand more than they initially tell me. I sometimes am rewarded for my non-judgemental interest with learning more and more. From these personal accounts come my views and tentative conclusions which I write on the F***m.

    Sometimes, I look at incest abstractly, as an action separate from anybody's personal experience as they have related it to me. I might do this in the form of asking questions: "Is incest natural?" "What is consent?" Actually, many of the thread titles show that other readers are doing the same thing: "How young is too young?", etc., that kind of thing. These questions provoke reader response, which gives me more experience, especially into attitudes (judgements) about incest generally. From this, I get a sense of "trends" in thinking here, at least, about incest generally. For example, it is a generally accepted value here that incest should be "consensual, nothing ever forced". There are people fantasizing rape and gang-banging in the chat room, but they are a small percentage. I read a lot of "I would like to..., if you want" during the cybering. This exemplifies the value of mutual consent (read respect) in action here.

    When I make conclusions, I believe I indicate they are tentative and limited to my own experience (or my experience of others' incest accounts here). I also compare the experience I hear about here to my own personal understand of human nature, trying to keep it very basic and close to solid fact most would agree upon. That is why I refer to biological or physiological realities such as the size of the immature pelvis which clearly makes adult penetration difficult, painful, and can not, at that age, result in procreation (which, speaking strictly biologically, is what nature intends penetration for). To me, this is so obviously ***e I cannot imagine anyone denying its ***th. The point being, this fact of biology should make pedophiles ask themselves what the significance, to themselves, this act is they are doing and if it matters to them that it is obviously contrary to nature--and what consequences there may be from that. No judgement implied. Just asking some to look at facts. On the issue of "power" in cross-generational incest, I asserted the importance of the sheer physical size difference as a determinate of unequal power b***een participants. A "tiny" child lying under a "giant" mommy or daddy, feeling all that weight, perhaps having trouble breathing on that account, face pressed into the giant's abdomen--and then being penetrated, let us say, with this "huge" member into the "tiny" opening. This has got to be very, very impressive at least to the tiny child pressed under the weight of the giant parent. Aside from any other authority or power the parent has--which some argue is not significant--size alone matters greatly. Adult incestors might imagine themselves lying under somebody weighing over 3-4 times their own body weight. Tell me THAT doesn't make you feel small and powerless! Even if you are also "being loved"!

    Ont the other hand, I point to the equally obvious fact (at least it is to me) that we are not merely biological entities. We have minds and emotions. Our psychological "anatomy" and "development" are no less real than physical anatomy and development, just because they are invisible.
    To say a child is "ready" for sex as soon as he/she is biologically ready (s***cturally, functionally, hormonally, etc.)is to reduce the individual to a body.
    We all know we are not merely a body, not merely a mind--we are all that and more. One of the surest signs of health is wholeness, or the ability of the individual to perceive him/herself as an integrated human being. This is NOT, as B4rry seems to think I am suggesting, an "ideal". It is a fact of life. People ARE more or less integrated, and the more so as they attain healthier functioning. This is not an ideal, something abstract, unreal. I believe "getting it together", wholeness is the very essence of human existence. It is what we, as humans, do. We are not "all there". We know many around us who are not, I am sure. And we know others who are refreshingly "together", harmoniously expressing ideas, feelings, and actions in consonance with one another--and who do not usually act in ways that bring conflict with others. To be like this is a direction, not an ideal.

    Thank you, B, for listening, and to all the others who may be reading.

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    Daddy
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    posted August 28, 2002 02:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    The *bleeped* words of significance are "***e", "***th" and "s***cturally".

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    Chloe
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    posted August 28, 2002 02:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chloe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Gentlemen! Gentlemen!

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    b4rry
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    posted August 28, 2002 07:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    • Learn the UBB codes.
    • Cut and paste b***een prepared text in your word porcessor and the board's text entry box.
    • You can also open***o instances of your browser, each with the Incest Board. In one have the text you're responding to. In the other have the text entry box.
    • Always remember how quotes are spposed to be handled in the non-cyber world: 1)With respect. 2)Always with their beginnings and ends clearly delimited so there's no confusion as to what belongs to the quote and what doesn't.
    • Try not to respond within other's text. Doing so makes it hard for people to follow both their reasoning and yours. Instead, it gives the reader the sense the respondant is just being pickie. It also makes people suspect the respondant may have tampered with the original text.

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    Daddy
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    posted August 28, 2002 02:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Daddy:
    The *bleeped* words of significance are "***e", "***th" and "s***cturally".

    _________________________________________
    The bleeped words are t r u e, t r u t h, and s t r u c t u r a l l y. There, got it.

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    Daddy
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    posted August 28, 2002 03:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by b4rry:
    • Learn the UBB codes.
    • Cut and paste b***een prepared text in your word porcessor and the board's text entry box.
    • You can also open***o instances of your browser, each with the Incest Board. In one have the text you're responding to. In the other have the text entry box.
    • Always remember how quotes are spposed to be handled in the non-cyber world: 1)With respect. 2)Always with their beginnings and ends clearly delimited so there's no confusion as to what belongs to the quote and what doesn't.
    • Try not to respond within other's text. Doing so makes it hard for people to follow both their reasoning and yours. Instead, it gives the reader the sense the respondant is just being pickie. It also makes people suspect the respondant may have tampered with the original text.


    Good God! I don't dare touch this!

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    b4rry
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    posted August 28, 2002 05:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    You know, Daddy, that there's an awful lot of "unhealthy" people pairing and creating babies in this world (to take what I understand of your notion of "healthy"). I agree on your concept, but what about what's actually happening in this world, most of which is outside the realm of incest?

    The thing is: when we try to come to grips with sexuality through the lens of incest, we must remember the world outside that lens. So we've got to ask "Is it right/wrong, desirable or not for the world at large." Additionally, we've got to factor in those that don't fit the norm for whatever reasonm (for example, midgets regarding size issues, retarded regarding mental and/or psychological development issues). Without looking across the breadth of humanity we risk drawing limited conclusions.

    I too am investigating -- and thinking about all I learn. In my own way, though, I'm trying to factor in this wider human perspective while I'm at it. So I don't totally disagree with what you've said, just have a slightly different take on it. You might say our investigations occasionally are parallel, although theirs never any gaurantee where they are now or will be later.

    ********************************************

    Try my ideas about posting. They won't bite too much. (And we'll understand any stumbling that may occur as you learn. Promise.)

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    Chloe
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    posted August 28, 2002 06:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chloe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Daddy, all you have to do to make yourself feel better is look aback at my attmepts! Chloe

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    Daddy
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    posted August 28, 2002 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by b4rry:
    [B]You know, Daddy, that there's an awful lot of "unhealthy" people pairing and creating babies in this world (to take what I understand of your notion of "healthy"). I agree on your concept, but what about what's actually happening in this world, most of which is outside the realm of incest?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    ABOVE THIS LINE OF PLUSES IS B4RRY. BELOW THE LINE IS DADDY. NOBODY GET MIXED UP.

    B4rry, my perspective does include sexuality outside incest. I thought that was obvious. My subject is incest, so I talk about that.

    Body size has more of an influence on children (who are much smaller and less powerful, of course) than do size differences in adults. Why does this kind of thing have to be poined out? Penetrating a midget adult with a giant's organ would come to the same thing physically. Isn't this apparent? Of course, because even outside incest, a child or small person is also just that--a person--we are not speaking of bodies only, we are speaking of minds and emotions coming together. A very small adult has, presumably, a mature mind and emotions, while a small child cannot. The coupling of giant with midget just is not going to have the same psychological consequences as coupling b***een parent and small child. (Do I really have to say all this??)

    Not understanding the difference b***een lust and love, need and love, not putting the needs of the other ahead one's own needs--are rampant issues in couplings outside of incest also. Again, this is so obvious, B4rry, I never thought to mention it. We all know this. I hope.

    The uniqueness of incest as a relationship is also obvious: a parent and a child, blood relatives, etc. The emotions that are felt in this special situation do NOT occur outside incest, in my observations. Where else will you hear a partner say (as Honeychile said, and I am paraphrasing freely here), "I am being penetrated by my creator, my creator is in me." One step further, my creator is creating a child in me. Other incested women have expressed this same extraordinary emotion and psychological perception to me. This is unique to cross-generational incest, and it has to have very special reprecussions, unlike any other relationship. It is not just about daddy's cock in his little girl (or whatever), it is sometimes about "being penetrated by my creator." This almost sounds like what devout exstatics have said about being penetrated by God.

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    Daddy
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    posted August 28, 2002 10:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Chloe:
    Daddy, all you have to do to make yourself feel better is look aback at my attmepts! Chloe

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    EVERYTHING ABOVE THE LINE OF PLUSES IS CHLOE'S WORDS, AND EVERYTHING BELOW THIS LINE IS DADDY'S WORDS. NOBODY GET CONFUSED.

    Chloe, B4rry, sorry, I am not going to learn yet another computer format to post here.I maintain I have had no problems from readers until***o days ago. I will just draw +++++++++lines and do the best I can to remember what post-ers are saying when I am answering them, rather than import their quotes into my text in some fashion. I refuse to make visits to this site a chore.

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    b4rry
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    posted August 29, 2002 06:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Daddy:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    EVERYTHING ABOVE THE LINE OF PLUSES IS CHLOE'S WORDS, AND EVERYTHING BELOW THIS LINE IS DADDY'S WORDS. NOBODY GET CONFUSED.

    Chloe, B4rry, sorry, I am not going to learn yet another computer format to post here.I maintain I have had no problems from readers until***o days ago. I will just draw +++++++++lines and do the best I can to remember what post-ers are saying when I am answering them, rather than import their quotes into my text in some fashion. I refuse to make visits to this site a chore.


    "Aw, Daddy, afraid to learn?" said chidingly.

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    Daddy
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    posted August 29, 2002 07:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by b4rry:
    "Aw, Daddy, afraid to learn?" said chidingly.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    No. Not interested. And could use support not chiding.

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    b4rry
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    posted October 18, 2002 10:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    This is the granddaddy of all Incest Board threads. Now all it needs is a table of contents.

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    frank
    unregistered
    posted October 23, 2002 11:40 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    I have had sole custody of my 3 year old grandaughter for over ayear now and have allowed my experienced 60 year old mechanic pedophile to train bonnie and teach her how to satisfy men.When he taught her how to suck he invited 10 men to his shop so she would get plenty of experience and as a result she is an expert cocksucker who can bring any man to a climax within seconds and/or minutes.She knows to swallow the load and has begun to love the taste of cum.Also because my mechanic is so expert he has been able to penetrate both her cunt and asshole.Its been my experience watching Jim with Bonnie since she was barely one year old that it is never too soon to begin training them.

    franklix69@*********

    ------------------
    frank

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    b4rry
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    posted October 23, 2002 12:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Frank: THIS IS NOT A PEDOPHILIA SITE. We neither condone sex with anyone unable to give consent nor condone sharing such a person sexually with others. Whether you're pulling our leg or not, please leave and never come back.

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    dog
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    posted October 23, 2002 12:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by frank:
    October 23, 2002 1140 hours
    . . . .
    Its been my experience watching Jim with Bonnie since she was barely one year old that it is never too soon to begin training them.

    There are volumes of staute and case law plus many judges and potential jurors who disagree.

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    Colleen
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    Registered: Mar 2002

    posted October 23, 2002 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Colleen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by frank:
    [B]IIts been my experience watching Jim with Bonnie since she was barely one year old that it is never too soon to begin training them.


    ---------------------------------
    Its never too young to start EDUCATING them.

    I was quite young when I could name every notable mountain in the country - but I was never encouraged to try climbing them.

    Colleen.

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    lordtigren
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    posted October 24, 2002 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lordtigren     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    I think the age should depend on whether one is ready for it, mentally and physically.
    This whole business of 16 (18 in some countries) being the youngest legal age is stupid. This age age limit thing started by some moron who wanted to made such a rule to have a certain degree of control over people. It's not based on what's right. Everybody has a different age when they're ready or sex. some people are mature earlier, both physically and mentally. People should see a doctor if they're mentally ready, so they can find out if they're physically ready... Also doctors should learn reality and be able to tell if a patient is ready for such things.
    Hell, I had a realistic doctor when I was very young and knew I was ready for sex when I was 10 and checked with this doctor as I had knowledge about sex as well as other subjects. I know alot of people wouldn't believe that someone could be ready for sex that young, but too bad for them. They're the ones missing out. I have studied many subjects and a couple of them are incest and sex (both the mental and physical state). I have understood almost everything about sex and love when I was 5 and even felt real love for a girl when at that age.

    ------------------
    Lord Tigren

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    starman1
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    posted October 24, 2002 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for starman1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    I felt as if I should put in my two cents. While I do not agree with starting youngsters, the question of how young is too young is cogent. I began masturbating at a young age, and then, technically, I guess, sexually assaulted my mother at age 15. She was very understanding, as she had been trying to figure out how to approach me. Needless to say, I feel our experience was very loving and positive. I have been able to help a number of mothers overcome their hesitation to approach their teen sons, but would never help someone with a small child or in the use of force. Incest should be consensual on both parts.

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    Daddy
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    posted October 25, 2002 01:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by lordtigren:
    [B]I think the age should depend on whether one is ready for it, mentally and physically.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Lordtigren: By their very nature, laws are based on generalizations about human nature and applied blanket-fashion to all individuals, often disregarding individual differences that might make certain people exceptions to the rule if it were able to be applied on an invidual basis. You may be one such individual exception.

    However, I think your interest is in exploring when people are actually psychologically and physically mature, not in when the law says they are, if I get your drift.

    Would you not agree that people want to choose their actions rather than be influenced or compelled? I assume you would answer yes to this.

    Would you not also agree that people want to know what it is they are choosing, not guess? Again, I assume you answered yes.

    Would you not agree with me that people want to know something of the outcome of their choice (as far as possible within reason), so that, for instance, there are few if any unpleasant surprises? I imagine you answered in the affirmative again.

    Would you also concur that--freely choosing a desired course of action, knowing the nature of that choice, having an idea of the outcome or consequences, and then acting accordingly--is a pretty acceptable or practical description of what might be called an "informed decision"?

    Now, I have a question: Would this kind of thinking more likely arise in a child or in an adult? Did you think like this when you were, you said, 5 years old and "knew everything about sex and love"?

    If you agree that informed decision or informed consent is desirable, rather than guessing or being seduced, influenced, manipulated, threatened or raped as a young person into having sex, then I assume you would want to be certain that the young person is capable of making informed consent. That is to say, that the young person is not only physically mature but psychologically mature in the sense of being able to think in the manner described above.

    Anything less than this, no matter what the law says, is not informed consent, and by definition is an abuse of that individual.

    By abuse I mean disrespect, to put it fundamentally. It is disrespectful, abusive, to not let individuals make informed decisions. It is part of respecting young individuals to let them have enough time to grow psychologically and have enough life experience to know the consequences of their actions. An adult--no matter how well-intentioned--cannot give the child the life experience the child needs in order to make its own decisions. The most the adult can do is give the child the time it needs to grow--in its own direction.

    What we are seeing a lot of in these postings is adults and young people (not necessarily underage or obviously children)speaking of having "mutually agreeable" incestual sexual experiences. Or, we see adults posting about their own early childhood "positive" incestual experiences. And, there is the general agreement that, at whatever age, sex should be consensual and pleasurable.

    However, these posters consistently ignore the nature of decision making.

    This is not an intellectual point or some philosophy. The lives of individuals, and their happiness, depend upon knowing the difference between the way an immature individual and an adult makes decisions. The point being that they make decisions in very different ways due to the differences in their age and development.

    The five-year-old simply cannot make as informed a decision as an adult can. The child just has not lived long enough to know what is going on in him/herself or his/her partner or, in the case of incest, the likely outcome his/her action could have on the family were the "secret" known to all.

    The child or immature individual may consent, may say yes; and the adult partner may consent and say yes. But, their "yes's" do not mean the same thing and never can. That is why "mutual consent" cannot be "informed consent" or "equality" between cross-generational incestors where there is wide age difference.

    The adult and child may share a common bond of pleasure and love in the incestual embrace. In that limited sense there may be some measure of equality and informed consent (both know what they feel), but only the adult has the years of experience and common sense to know the outcome of their shared action. And the adult cannot somehow transfer his/her knowledge or life experience in any meaningful way to the child or younger partner.

    And, most important, the imbalance in experience or equality equates with a power difference. The young person in the incest relationship with a parent is always lesser in power. The young person's life experience up to that moment has been one of dependency, relying on the parent for survival, love, and protection. The child, for example, loves to please the parent, or pleases out of fear. Wanting to please is not a free choice, however it may seem, and certainly acting on fear is not free choice.
    I have talked with many people on this site who were incested when they were young, and it is clear to me that the power differential had a far-reaching effect on the behaviour, thinking, and emotional lives of every one of them. Even though they were examples of pleasurable incest.

    The incestual experiences were, they said, pleasurable, and may still be going on. Yet, they are nonetheless experiencing emotional difficulties based on the dominance of the parent. I believe this is because they had sex too young, even though they may have wanted it. Quite simply, they did not know what they were getting into. And that is because they did not, and could not, give informed consent at their age.

    It is too bad that we have to find out LATE "how young is too young".

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    b4rry
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    posted October 25, 2002 06:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    You know, Daddy (et al), that this really isn't an incest question at all, but simply one about people in general and one about sex in general.

    Some ramblig thoughts on this:

    I keep thinking about all the experiences children must go through in their learning process. After all, however powerful sex might be, its fundamentally another learning hurdle each of us crosses on our path to so-called maturity. Before sex comes other hurdles.

    For instance, parents early on learn to baby proof their home to protect the baby from the multitude of dangers in an adult environment. Its not just the hot stove we need to keep the baby from touching. In such things no reasonable parent would ever wait for informed consent from the baby.

    But, likewise, parents often lead their quite young children (sometimes even babies) to play in water so that they'll learn eventually to conquer swimming instead of fearing the water. In this the parent wishes to both bring pleasure to the child and to help prepare them to handle water's dangers. Again, the parents don't wait for the baby to give informed consent.

    Then, on the other hand, I think of all the young women I've been acquainted with who, as late teens or even twenty-somethings, have used what American society generally recognizes as their right to decide for themselves to have sex, have gotten pregnant before they or the man involved were financiall or fully emotionally ready to raise a child and had their lives so totally changed, often not for the better. And I think of all the great minds this world has lost due to early pregnancy and the concomittant life diversion that happens to both parties involved. Yes, theses situations would generally be thought of as stemming from informed consent.

    Growing up is never easy. There are tough issues all along the way. I know I don't have a magic formula to make it work out well, and I think every truely honest person would say they don't either.

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    dog
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    posted October 25, 2002 08:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dog     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by lordtigren:
    October 24, 2002 1509
    . . . .
    I have understood almost everything about sex and love when I was 5 and even felt real love for a girl when at that age.

    That gives new meaning to the word "precocious."

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    starman1
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    posted October 25, 2002 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for starman1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    As I have read these posts, I have been doing a lot of thinking about my experiences. My mother was in the medical profession, and provided my sister and I with a number of very good guides on sex, that very thoroughly explained the biological aspects of "the birds and the bees," but which went no further. Now, mom was very mellow. Once, when I was about 12, I was bored and was sitting on the back porch, jacking off, wanting to feel good. Mom did not fly off the handle, but merely told me that was a private activity, not to be done in public. At age 15, when mom was 37, I began sneaking into her room to watch her sleeping, and began touching her, When she discovered me, rather than getting angry, she became my lover and teacher for the practical side of physical love. She had thoguht about me, but did not know how to approach the subject. As I did not have all the indoctrination of what society accepts, I did what seemed logical to me. BTW, mom had had her tubes tied when my sister was born, so no issue possible, and also, dad was killed when I was 2 years old, and generally, men are not too attracted to women with two very young children.

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    Daddy
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    posted October 25, 2002 03:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by b4rry:
    [B]You know, Daddy (et al), that this really isn't an incest question at all, but simply one about people in general and one about sex in general.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Wow, B, you are not rambling at all. I think you really hit on the big picture here.

    You point to something I did not see. And, it serves to strengthen my previous point about "informed consent" (above).

    Yes, the parents protect the baby from the hot stove, from running out in traffic, from swallowing garbage and all of that. And, even when the baby is a youngster, this goes on but to a lesser extent and now includes other subjects, such as (in our troubled cities especially) "don't talk to strangers", "come home before dark", "carry your cell phone and call us," etc. Informed consent is not expected here. Compliance is.

    These protective behaviours on the part of the parent inform the child and young person about the dangers "out there" so that one day they will manage themselves safely and make "informed" decisions and consents independently. This is the educative and protective process the parent performs. The information the parent thereby conveys leads eventually to the ability of the child to give informed consent.

    And here is the thing I see in stark relief, B: In the case of incest beween parent and child or young person, the parent does not see him/herself as something to protect the child from! The parent does not see him/herself on a level with a hot stove or eating contaminated food, or as a threatening person in the environment, etc. And, how could the incesting parent see him/herself as a threat to the child if the parent is led by his/her own desire for pleasure or control (often called "love")? And, the child goes along because he/she trusts the parent because the information the child has received all his life, say, has led the child to believe the parent only has its best interest at heart. And, because the sexual act may actually feel good to the child.

    Still, there may be consequences for both parent and child that do not feel good later. One of those consequences I have discovered through talking with people here is that of the "fixation" I mentioned long ago in one of my posts before I knew for sure such a thing existed. That is where the incested person cannot successfully become emotionally committed to a potential mate outside the home or at least outside the feeling of "home". Mates in this case have to arouse similar feelings to what was aroused in them with their parents, or the incestee is not attracted. Fixation may also have the destructive outcome of the incestee re-inacting unexpressed childhood emotions on the "parent figure" the incestee may mate with. Remember my murderous girlfriend who tried to kill me when she projected her father onto me. I certainly was not asked to give informed consent to that event!

    While these problems, as you say, are not limited to incest, I think that the incest bond is so powerful and deep that the problems that arise are much more intense than they otherwise might be, and that moving beyond (growing up) becomes significantly more difficult for the incested person.

    I realize this idea is going to offend some readers, and I am not intending to offend. I am driven to this conclusion by the stories of incest that I have been told. In some cases, the people involved actually came out with some of what I am saying here.

    I am open to learning differently. Honeychile's story, for example, seems to contradict my conclusion, because she had sex with her father as an adult and seems to have outside relationships as well, although that is not entirely clear from her postings. She seems very well adjusted, and this is what makes her story sound so wholesome to me at least. So, I am open to see beyond my conclusion here. Nonetheless, I think incest--even pleasurable incest with consent--presents unique problems while it shares with other experiences certain elements of just growing up, as B says.

    But, I have to stress the importance of realizing that mere "going along" is not informed consent and that the power imbalance between parent and child is not to be underestimated in its lifelong effect. That there is no question of cross-generational incest being a balanced or equal experience for both paricipants.

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    b4rry
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    posted October 25, 2002 05:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Daddy, did you intentionally ignor my point about young adult informed consent or did you get sufficiently wrapped up in making your good points that you overlooked that point I made?

    One of the important issues one faces in childrearing is "When is he/she ready for _________." It basically is a judgement of what one feels of the child's ability to issue informed consent over _________. Has the child reached the point where they must be the leading agent in their life regarding _________, whether the outcome is positive or negative? However, its really no more than an experienced eye looking into a crystal ball trying to see if the child's eye can judge his/her look into a crystal ball adequately that he/she can handle the outcome. "Informed" really is never more than guesswork, just some more educated than others.

    As many parents will tell you, the dividing line over whether the parent directly or indirectly controls the child's consent decisions reagrding _________ comes when the parent no longer can control regarding _________, not when the child has grown to ben sufficiently "informed" regarding _________.

    One of the big arenas whereing the parent-child control issue is played out is the child's broadening/growing socialization as puberty approaches. It is a crucial arena for the child in that much of who they will be all the rest of their life is shaped during the socialization explorations of pre-puberty and early post-puberty -- and it is where they begin to more strongly wrestle larger chunks of control over their life from their parents.

    You put such a youngster with budding social skills and raging hormones in contact with almost anyone they find desirable and something may well happen that, since it'll probably be beyond the scope of parental control, will be based on that child's developed level of "informed" consent capability, whether its sufficiently "informed" for _________ or not.

    So what does the other person around that developing boy or girl do? That all depends on the other person. And which other person. Likewise regarding the outcome of _________. Yet, ideally, in modern technological societies the child is kept sufficiently busy focussing on other areas of their development that the socialization and hormone drives develop in sync with the whole youth and that any serious involvement the youth may have with others is postponed until the child is more ready.

    Yet postponement cannot go on forever if the child is going to become a healthy adult. Sooner or later the issue of the child's developing ability to issue "informed" consent really becomes mute. I think all parents pray a little (or alot) at that point.

    And that's the point many late teens and twenty-somethings have reached, often sooner if they've allowed the post-puberty years' socialization pressures and raging hormones overwealm other aspects of their development. Hence all the young unmarried mothers I've met and/or talked to. (Yes, both the fathers and the mothers weren't really ready for what they "informed" themselves into.)

    Now, Daddy, about the psychological impact of cross-generation incest: Its really not surprising. Most of us will agree that their first sexual relations and their first "real" love had important impacts on them, more so than the typical connection we feel with any later sexual partner. This is especially true when one already has a long relationship history with that partner as one's parent, sibling or cousin. But, like any first partner, a very big factor in the outcome is HOW the relations came about, HOW it occured and HOW it was handled subsequently. This, perhaps, is where the love, caring, understand, etc. comes in, regardless of the partner, but especially if that first partner is a parent, sibling or cousin.

    First sex is like having to play with fire in order to become adult, but all the HOWs involved can be absolutely crucial to the result.

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    Daddy
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    posted October 25, 2002 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by b4rry:
    [B]Daddy, did you intentionally ignor my point about young adult informed consent or did you get sufficiently wrapped up in making your good points that you overlooked that point I made?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    B, this has to be your most extensive post ever. I will have to take more thime than I have right now, to respond. Just a note now though:

    I did get wrapped up in going around on one or two points. I will try to finish the discussion later.

    However, I am not sure you responded to my most major gleaning from your first post: that the incesting parent does not perceive HIM/HERSELF as a factor the child may need to be protected from when the parent is "blinded" by desire of one sort or another including hormonal. You skirt around this when you talk about it all depends on "how" the incest is entered into. But, I am saying, the incesting parent is likely not to be as objective about whether or not he or she should incest his or her child as this same parent would be about whether the same child should play with matches, for example. And the question is: why not? The answer is the problem I am raising about lust, basically, call it what you will.

    Back to you in a bit...

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    b4rry
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    posted October 25, 2002 06:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for b4rry     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Daddy, I didn't think I needed to respond to that point since I thought we'd covered that many times before. Also, I mentioned the "HOW" simply because we've seen some cases where things appear (form what we know) to have worked out quite reasonably.

    Yeah, it was a long post.

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    Daddy
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    posted October 25, 2002 10:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by b4rry:
    Daddy, I didn't think I needed to respond to that point since I thought we'd covered that many times before. Also, I mentioned the "HOW" simply because we've seen some cases where things appear (form what we know) to have worked out quite reasonably.

    Yeah, it was a long post.


    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I don't mind a long post at all when I have the time. I like the comprehensiveness, B.

    The WAY you somehow put the matter made me
    see it in sharp relief. I think the point needs to be made over and over because, first of all, anything we say here today gets scrolled back and forgotten until someone like you resurrects interesting stuff from the archives...while incest marches on. And, second, because the issues of informed consent and parents blinded by desire and subtly abusing children in the name of love cannot be brought up too often. I only hope I can do this without getting knee-jerk reactions. I do NOT say these words with any disrespect to my friends in here.

    I think what is new news to me is that, even amid "positive" incest experience, pleasurable incest, I have found emotional distress and deep childhood issues that I believe stem from incest--perhaps all the more intense for these having been pleasurable events that are no longer taking place instead of painful ones thankfully ended.

    I can only hope that "crystal-ball gazing" will, in some small way, be more certain for having raised some of these issues here.

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    n2men
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    From: cinti,ohio.usa
    Registered: Oct 2002

    posted October 26, 2002 03:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2men     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by simon_uk22:
    hi i dont think young is an option, i think you can start sex as a baby, i wish my parents were into incest and had forced me to have sex ar 1/2 yrs old

    simon


    fake email.

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    Daddy
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    posted October 26, 2002 04:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daddy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by b4rry:
    [B]You know, Daddy (et al), that this really isn't an incest question at all, but simply one about people in general and one about sex in general.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    OK, B, I am back again to try to tackle your long post at 1:00 a.m.

    I think I agree with you. "Informed consent" is not always possible nor always should it be applied in the young. But, the wisdom comes in knowing when it can be applied and when not.

    Clearly, children cannot give informed consent when they may want to play in traffic. Parents have to override their wills in this and experience cannot be allowed to teach them not to play in traffic. Unless a squashed cat can be used to give the child the mournful experience of what happens to little beings who do not stay on the sidewalk. Some experience has to be learned indirectly, sometimes we have to take the word of the wiser on faith until we do grow up more.

    So, yes, there are appropriate times when informed consent cannot take place in the young, and we protect them so they can live long enough to develope the ability to make informed judgements of their own. This is not disrespect, it is protecting the young until they no longer need protection.

    And, yes, when puberty arrives, the mating urge pretty well rules reason and the young are going to make mistakes of their own and learn informed judgement and consent the hard way. It helps if emotional rapport and respect has been developed all along between teen and parent so that the two can share in important decision making when possible and with as little rebellion as possible.

    And, yes, in the case of thousands of adults, certainly the insistence on making one's own decisions without being as informed as possible, or in the face of information with which one may disagree, has caused many lives to perish before breathing a breath of air.

    But now to incest. From my inquiry, it appears to me that we cannot compare cross-generational inces, with large age difference between partners, with any other "first love" experience. I will take just the most obvious differences--which somehow escape close analysis most of the time:

    The obvious fact is that, first of all, the incesting child or adolescent has lived with his/her partner for years or decades, on close terms physically, emotionally, and in many ways. There is a certain level of intimacy long established before incest. By contrast, most people know their first non-incestual lover vastly less long and greatly less well before having sex--especially these days. This is a difference that counts.

    Secondly, in cross-generational incest the age difference guarantees a gulf between the two in terms of development and capability of sharing experience. Nobody in their right mind would claim that a five year old, say, is having the same level of experience that the adult parent is having during incest! How much of a shared event or real intimacy is there in this kind of connection?? Bring the two lovers closer in age, even a teen-ager with a parent twice their age is going to guarantee great differences in their emotional responses. Contrast this with non-incestual coupling which naturally tends to be with mates more closely matched in age.

    The point is that these differences in age and development, and the length of time living together on close terms, add up to a kind of experience qualitatively different than when these differences are less or not present.

    One may argue that what has this to do with incest? It seems only incidental to incest. People of dissimilar ages who are not incestual mate frequently, so what is the point? The point is that when this age/developmental difference occurs in incestual partners, it matters in a way not possible in age-dissimilar couples outside incest. And that is because of two factors: the length of time the couple has spent living and developing TOGETHER before intercourse; and the UNIQUE nature of this pre-established relationship.

    Some years ago, couples courted before having sex. They actually courted for years. There was no MacDonald's to "hang out" and "chill" in, and sex might not happen for years. Interestigly, some older folks from that era who are still married have told me that the secret to their success in living together for decades has been that "we married our best friend". To really marry a "companion" is almost unheard of today.

    In cross-generational incest, the partners have lived together, perhaps not courted, for years. They come into the coupling with this emotional intimacy under their belt already. This means they bring much more to their relationship than do many "fuck-now-get-to-know-ya-later(maybe)" couples. The sex is likely to be more intense because more is brought to it.

    Now to the crux, though: the KIND of relationship that has existed before incest is much different than the kind of relationship that can exist in any couple outside incest, no matter how long this couple has known and courted each other.
    The parent-child relationship is so obviously different from the lover-lover relationship outside the family that one wonders why I even bring it up. But it seems necessary because, time and again here, we read that parent and child are describing themselves as "lovers", "friends", and "don't want to be with anybody else".

    In another thread in this Forum I talked about the "giant" parent and "tiny" child and how size makes a difference when it comes to our perception of power when we are children. Of how the parent is actually perceived by the child as "godlike", due to his/her relatively giant size and power over the tiny child's very life and death,and this god is provider for every need, bestower of love and discipline, and even possessor of the magic seed or soil of life. If you doubt these images really have real meaning for children--and for the child still functioning in our adult unconscious--then I urge the reader to speak intimately with some of the people in this web site, because I got these concepts and images from them. This is the way, they say, they actually perceived their parents when they were small children; and they still have a tendency to perceive older people (of the opposite sex usually) in somewhat the same way, in spite of being "grown up" and a "giant" now too.

    The godlike, seemingly all-powerful and all-loving parent is supposed to protect the tiny child. This is another difference between the incestual relationship and the relationship between mature, similar-aged partners outside of incest. When the parent enters into a sexual relationship with his/her child or teenager, the younger partner cannot help but be influenced by this perception of his/her parent formed when he/she was truly a helpless child. There will always be some power difference, some inequality, some sense of remaining a child emotionally--no matter what the actual age of the younger partner--when sex occurs with a parent. This is some of the uniqueness to the incest relationship contrasted with any relationship outside of incest.

    The consequence of incest, even pleasurable incest, is, I now believe from talking to people here, at least some degree of emotional fixation. The adult child of incest never quite forms a committed relationship outside the family, and when they may mate outside, there are haunting themes of childhood wafting through the bedroom at night. Inevitably, one mates with somebody who resembles one's parent, at least emotionally."Daddy's little girl" never really leaves home--even when she does. The same holds for "Mommy's child" too.

    The rewarding side of incest and fixation seems to be the powerful closeness and unique fulfillment--but it is a tender trap, and one many here would gladly die for.

    The scary side of "negative" incest (abuse) is when one partner acts out unconscious rage on the other--or perhaps on a mate who is not the parent but who has been thrust into that role unwillingly--as happened to me when my previous girlfriend tried to kill me instead of her father.

    Sometimes these two sides go together, as was the case with my girlfriend. We were incestuously close (she could have been my sister, emotionally speaking, I now think)but she was irrational and dangerous.

    I hope this clears some things up. Now I am tired. Goodnight all.

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    Ruby
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    posted October 27, 2002 10:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ruby     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
    Daddy, I have read your recent posts and have the following comments:

    I know in my case, I certainly did not see myself as "a threat" to my son. As I believe I have posted before, I saw our relationship becoming intimate, as a natural progression of the love my son and I shared. Now, you have an opinion in stating that the "love" my son and I shared was really not love, but the result of my need for emotional and physical intimacy. I can understand that from the perspective of an unbiased third party. That statement gives me pause to think about the relationship my son and I shared. It was my belief, at the time, that our intimacy was not a threat to my son, and was a result of the love we shared for each other. Now, I will admit that the feelings we shared for each other probably would not have occured had our family situation been different. It was just my son and I from when he was an infant. I never re-married, and at the time we became intimate, I wasn't involved with another man. In fact, there was a period of courtship between us, leading up to us becoming fully intimate. So, from my perspective, the feelings that we shared were those of love; and our becoming sexually intimate was the result of those feelings of love.

    So, was it love, or was it my needs? I think the answer to that question is up to the person viewing the situation. In my mind, it was love; but I can certainly understand the other opinion.

    Was my son old enough to give consent? Again, I think so. Our relationship lasted 6 years, and ended when he was 20. When we began, I saw him as a mature young man. I have seen young men of 18 to 22 that didn't have the maturity my son had at 14. Again, it just depends on the person. Was my son the same at 20 as at 14? No. Was he more mature? Of course. Would he have not entered into a relationship with me at 18 or 20, like he did when he was younger? I believe he would have. But, that is a "what if" question, and don't know that it is valid, as I can only deal with what did happen. Societies view of what age a person is no longer a child has varied over history and geographic location. In my opinion, my son was old enough to enter into the relationship that we did. Of course, the opinion can be held that I was too close to the situation to make that call, but in my opinion, it was the right time for both of us.

    Lasting effects of our relationship? As stated, it lasted 6 years. That part of our relationship ended nearly 19 years ago. My son has been married only once (and still is married to the same woman), and has 2 children. His wife does not resemble me physically, nor does she have the same personality as I. I am proud of both of them, and of my grandchildren. Does my son still think about me sexually? I don't know for sure. It doesn't matter, because there is no way the two of us could be intimate again. From my perspective, my son has gone on with his life, and shows no ill effects from our time together.

    For myself, I don't see any negative effects either. Again, that is subject to debate, but I am happy, and although not involved with anyone now, that really isn't that important as I have a number of close friends and activities that keep me busy.

    From my perspective, our intimate relationship did not harm either of us, nor any outside third parties (as no one else knew of our relationship besides the two of us). Would someone from the outside understand or share my view? Definitely not. I have always known that, and why our relationship was kept secret to the outside world.

    However, your points have merit, Daddy. In fact, from an outside perspective, they can apply to what my son and I shared.

    What is the reality of the relationship my son and I shared? Was it a mutual love as I see it, or an abuse of my role as a parent as you state it could be? I think the answer depends on the perspective from which one is looking.

    Thank you for your comments and observations.

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